This was deeply enjoyable- you managed to touch a sensitive topic and dissect it without apology, where most wouldn’t go near this. And fwiw, I agree completely that dating is low grade prostitution. The thing is, if prostitutes are sex workers and sex work is destigmatized as bourgeois white women are attempting, then there really shouldn’t be any consternation if you name dating as part of that lineage. This also reminds me of the whole sugar baby phenomenon. I honestly wonder if anyone has looked into those womens’ life outcomes. It never once occurred to me to trade attention for dinner or drinks. I don’t even think any man has tried to buy me a drink who I wasn’t already friends with—perhaps it’s the RBF. Sometimes I wonder how easy life might have been if I had traded on beauty. But I wouldn’t be writing this comment if I had. It’s a trap.
Great points. I am curious about the sugar daddy thing. That was about 5 years ago? I’ll have to look. The destigmatization is interesting because it’s really split. On the one hand, form them, it’s supposed to be empowering. On the other hand, they us it as proof #1 of patriarchical power structures.
I think it is strange that some Sugar Babies are "Shocked" that men expect sex in exchange for paying their tuition (or other substantial payments), and not just "Dates". There's some major cognitive dissonance going on in the younger generation (And the millennials selling the service).
General millennial era wisdom was: You can "Hold out" past the cliche "3rd Date" for sex (See, that's why it exists), but you roll the dice unless you're a 10..
And girls/women know they're being judged as "Keepers" based on how "Adventurous" they are. But they're not even being judged as wife material. Just continuous girlfriend material....
Which STILL doesn't help me understand how they could think Sugar Daddies are there for anything but an eventual courtesan arrangement.
All I can think is...You must be in a lot of denial by the time you become a sugar baby. No one puts it into words to own it, but I imagine the sentiment must be: "Well, if I'm gonna FEEL like a whore, at least I'll have money and he won't dump me."
Maybe that's at the heart of OnlyFans too?
No matter my own experience, I lack the data to generalize for an entire social phenomenon.
I wonder if it’s the same people holding those positions or if this is a division among the intersectional crowd and the radical feminists having the latter position. Honestly exploring the sugar daddy thing would be interesting, because it was at its height about 10-15 years ago.
I have to bring up one of my favorite exchanges with my grandmother. She made a comment about my sister and her boyfriend: “why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free?”
I said (paraphrasing all these decades later): “That’s a good point, Grandma. If I get married and “buy the cow,” the woman gets half my salary for the rest of my life. The average married couple has sex twice a week. If we do the math, that means that every time I “get the milk,” it costs me $$$$ (I actually did the math). But if I go to a prostitute, according to some quick searched on the internet, it will only cost me $$$.
“So, Grandma, the best thing for me to do is not get married, but hire hookers twice a week. Thanks for helping me understand that.”
Yeah, I got into a lot of hot water for that.
One of my arguments for legalized prostitution is it’s honest. A lot of dating/mating isn’t, as you’ve rightly pointed out.
Lol. I’m sure that didn’t go over well but there’s a reason why prostitution has been so ubiquitious for so long. I’d rather have legal prostitution than have my girls taken advantage of by men just for sex.
Agreed. You kind of have to take sex off the table one way or another (maybe because you’re already having it, maybe not) in order to have a good conversation about a possible partnership.
Absolutely fantastic piece! I’m going to use it with my young clients (I’ll be sending this to them) because it breaks down a lot of social elephants in the room. My husband and I often laugh about the concept and in some instances when it comes to work, “you’re a prostitute for someone.” Selling sex indirectly because of a position at work, etc.
"Yes, yes, yes...." "No, no, no..." Great writing makes you think. And I'm thinking.... My first reaction to this was how brave it was to take on this topic, and how well you made your argument. But while the problem is well identified, the title is "How to Fix Dating," and you don't seem to suggest a fix. You hint at it with your personal anecdote. And, it's gnawing at me, this overly aggressive interpretation of the act of "buying someone a drink." Let me explain.
I'm a widow. After my wife passed away, I did some online dating, which I came to view as "online introductions," not "online dating," because you don't date online, you meet online, then move to real life. My intent was to meet someone to spend the rest of my life with, and with my two young kids.
I bought a lot of drinks and dinners. Was that a form of "prostitution?" I don't think so, it was a process: I invited women to dinner, and, even if there was an instant "this isn't going to work" feeling, I appreciated meeting new people, and I didn't expect (or want) anything more. Occasionally, dinner led to more dates. Occasionally, it led to sex. But not because I paid for that first dinner. Relationships formed because I liked some of the people I met.
Is that prostitution? I don't think so. It's process. So what are we trying to "fix?"
It seems to me that the line between prostitution and process is blurry at best, much more blurry than suggested in this post, and paved by intent, respect, communication, or lack thereof. Put another way, in your personal example, you and your wife had well-communicated intent and respect for each other. Does it matter whether you met at a birthday party, a bar, or a brothel? Barack and Michelle Obama's first date included a movie. Was it OK if he paid?
So what I'm left a bit cold by the autofilled idea that buying a drink is low-grade prostitution, no matter how well articulated. I'm left wondering what the "fix" is to spread more intentional dating.
- Change the name of online dating to online introductions?
- Elect and celebrate leaders who model good intentions and respect?
- Better parenting?
- Training AI companions to better promote respectful dialog, as their use grows?
Great points and that’s something I struggled with. I tried to caveate because my goal wan’t ‘all dating’ but more along the lines of “if we name the underlying context, we can be better prepared to manage the other layers’ I could have probably pulled that out better.
I cut a personal example where I played the numbers game with a girl once. It was odd how she reacted as the ‘ledger’ became ‘unballanced’ I felt like. On the other hand, I’ve met girls who absolutly expect to be treated like a flapper and yet would hate the insiuation but were always complaining about being taken advantage of.
My goal was to name a problem in the foundation, provide a few insights on how to manage it but more to the point, naming the problem is half the fix I think?
Whether you pay for a drink, dinner, or a movie doesn't determine your place on this spectrum, and reframes the discussion. Then, we could turn to naming the actual problem: are we saying the "problem" is there are more Insincere Relations than before? I wonder about that.
So that’s a great point. I agree there are more insincere with the advent of dating. For a girl there’s the idea that if she doesn’t put out after 3 dates then he’s going to move one. There’s the new phenomina of the ‘situationship’ which doesn’t require commitment. The irony is that it’s not like Gen Z is having the most, and best sex. That peaked with Gen X and Gen Z is actually quite sexless and relationshipless. It’s become so incincere, no-one is even doing it.!
I'm surprised your argument caused such controversy. Seems pretty intuitive that people can buy sexual services/companionship with things other than currency.
The old saying is that prostitution is the oldest profession. That's false, but there was certainly (non-sacred) prostitution in Bronze Age Mesopotamia, by around 2,400 B.C. Currency wasn't invented till around 600 B.C. So men were buying time with prostitutes with good and services for nearly two thousand years before they could have done it with coins.
Often, they were paying with food, protection, or a place by the fire and out of the cold. Or whatever the man had that the woman needed. The line between prostitute and a mate, or profession and need, have always been tenuous.
That debate was over 500 comments and it created a ton of waves. The irony was the group 'founder' was dating and then married a girl who was desperate to get out of South Africa so they were dealing with a layer of that exchange and I think the topic landed a little too close to home.
Tbh, I think prostitution disguised as dating is just the end result of an atomized, individualized consumer culture. I don’t think this is avoidable with capitalism. Hence, the online discourse about “high value men” etc. I don’t think our birth rates or relationships will recover from this until systemic change occurs organically, over time , in response to the status quo. I don’t think any kind of revolution can fix it.
Very entertaining. Point interestingly made. If people thought of "prostitution" just like any other contract for services, like with the plumber or the roofer - you pay, you get what you want and need, they wouldn't be so funny about pretending. It's worth mentioning that there are women out there who don't drink. Don't offer to buy us a drink if you want to date us. LOL. Also worth mentioning are the guys who are going after older women, sometimes 20-30 years older. I know of a 770-year-oldwoman "dating" a guy in his 20s. We should call that "prostitution" as well. Fair is fair. 🤣🤣🤣
so-called boytoys are a thing and seems just as transactional as men's traditional approach
to women. Radical Feminism blew up the older mores, but instead of creating a new paradigm, frequently just took independence as a reason (excuse) to do the same things to males. Not blaming women; it's a natural human tendency leaning into 'getting even'. But I would compare it to a black musician taking advantage or credit for a white musician's creativity, because so many whites had done that to black musicians. Not right in either case. In the long history of 'mankind' (womankind ?), we have managed to royally fowl up what is basically a very simple matter. We suck at birth and generally want to continue doing that as long as possible.
I just don't understand why you think it has to be a "get even" reaction instead of a simple, "independence works and is simpler" attitude. For myself and all the other single, independent women I know, it's most definitely not a "get even." We just like not having to put up with someone else's BS. If anything, the younger dudes chasing older women for their money is the "get even" male version of the female "gold digger" stereotype.
Thanks for your comment, but maybe you missed that I did not say it “has to be” get even, and I did not limit it to only women, but to humans in general. People who prioritize “justice” as in justice warriors seem to stress retribution over forgiveness. What I lament is the lack of a more wholistic model where all participants are free to be fulfilled; no one being entitled, but each one being valued. I sense a bit of an edge, a defensive attitude, in your response. My observation is based only on my experience of self-described feminists and people of color who were coming from being hurt by an unfair system. Humans do typically react to injustice by wanting to get even, altho that's just the first step to healing. Then there is reconciliation and acceptance. Lastly, no one likes bs or needs to put up with it, but it is rare to find humans who have eliminated all bs from their behavior. It seems like part and parcel of the human equation, but No one's perfect. Perhaps I chose the wrong ladies
DAYUM! This hit so hard on my experience dating. I’m supposed to feel empowered but each time, I felt the pressure to ‘sell’ from many men and my lady friends giving advice.
With respect, I think you have missed the point that dating is INVOLUNTARY prostitution for men that many women support.. Tell a woman that you want to go dutch, or for a walk in the park (free) or a coffee data ($5), and watch her tell the man to take a hike.
I love the practical advice here, not only because it's practical and direct, but also because it can function as a litmus test.
And by that I mean, if a woman (or man) is not ready to have that conversation - the "should we be married, from a practical point of view" conversation - yet, then they are not a good partner. Because they still view the game as a game, consciously or not. A game of impressing and posturing and trading and status seeking and playing tricks around unspoken boundaries and expectations.
And that is a child's view of relationships. And, quite clearly, our dating culture is childish. It's impractical, it's idealistic, it's based on fairy tales and ignorance of uncomfortable truths. The people who play these games (and the people who aren't willing to discuss the prositution aspect) haven't broken through the ceiling of that game and reached the point of actually being ready for the practical considerations of a marriage.
There is a Seinfeld episode that's about this, or something similar. Elaine starts spending time with a guy who works at a clothing store who promises to get her a discount on a dress. He delays the possibility of her getting the discount to try and keep her spending time with him. At one point when Elaine is trying to figure out if he is, Kramer suggests that he's thinking the same of her. Kramer says towards the end of the conversation "Only when we talk openly will there be a free exchange of sex for discounts".
not surprised that this thread blew up a bit. It does affirm how unsettled the nature of male/female relationships are/continue to be. I have seen comments in other discussions about how young men do not know what to do anymore- to get laid ! And that may drive a lot of angst and/or drive acts of violence like school shootings. (and the furry ultra right wing weirdness).
Glad I lived my formative days in the era before a lot of this went off the rails. Dating was more innocent pre mid 1960's. Does 'dating' mean screwing now ? I feel like our culture has over-sexualized a great deal of life nowadays...(spellcheck wants me to use ' serialized' instead of sexualized, which does break my argument), but historically, we humans have not dealt very well or very honestly with the frank fact of our carnal natures, which I would suggest is a gift of God to humanity,,,,birds do it, bees do it. almost all creatures do it, but humans have made it into a stage to enact all sorts of other dramas. Without desire, life would die out, like some idealistic cult (there was one) which believed only in celibacy. Good luck in trying to unravel all the threads...you have opened a big cans of worms, but then maybe it is time someone tried to have an open discussion, but not an open marriage. yikes..
The worst part about it is that everything we are told we aren’t supposed to do are exactly the things that women respond to… unless they don’t. Like how 50 Shades of Grey about a Billionaire Rapist was a blockbuster while #Metoo was accusing billionaires of using their power to seduce women.
I would wager that our current commander-in-chief's comment about "grab them by the..." actually gave him a bounce in the 2016 vote, because it reaffirmed heterosexuality as normal, At a time when a lot of regular folks (and women) were turned off by gays demanding so much attention.
One issue for many is "flirting" is no longer an acceptable form of role-playing or indicating interest, like it used to be...
Yeah, It’s crazy and also absurd when he said that and people lost their minds yet I’ve had a woman grab me by the junk in a bar and was told I was supposed to like it… at the same time they were losing their minds about Trump. I wrote about that more here which is highly related.
Forgive me, I’m having a bit of trouble collecting all of this, but what exactly is the practical solution? The problem is that dating is like prostitution, so the solution is… to not buy drinks for women at the bar? Then get into a long term relationship and lay out boundaries ahead of marriage. That seems like it’s skipping a few steps. And the advice doesn’t do a whole lot for men who already weren’t buying women drinks at bars. This was overall a good article, but I’m just not sure what it’s trying to say towards the end.
Good point. I think the practical solution is that we understand what’s happening below the surface. I explained how I handled it and you’re right, I should have stepped back and identified that my wife and I met through a friend group and knew each other for two years before we started dating. So for the immediate, how do you meet a girl, that’s a little more nuanced but something that I think needs to be improved too, mostly because we’ve lost so many of the social settings that used to enable that.
I think that most relationships are transactional in the sense of the law of reciprocity. As you correctly pointed out, you see that take place in the immediate form with dating. Friendships that are one sided usually don’t last or don’t seem healthy. A longer transactional arc would be that a parent and child. On the surface that doesn’t seem transactional, however, the reciprocity on the child’s part typically comes when the parent is old enough to need care. Most cultures honest this transaction. But we in the West tend to pay caregivers to deal with it instead. Either way, there’s a transaction. Unless one party violates the social contract (abuse or otherwise), there’s usually a visceral response to the person that doesn’t honor the expected transaction. We usually call them names.
Yeah, I struggled with that element too. My relationship with Lisa is transactional because there has to be balance. Yet it’s selfless transaction, not selfish transactions which I think is the core thread.
This was deeply enjoyable- you managed to touch a sensitive topic and dissect it without apology, where most wouldn’t go near this. And fwiw, I agree completely that dating is low grade prostitution. The thing is, if prostitutes are sex workers and sex work is destigmatized as bourgeois white women are attempting, then there really shouldn’t be any consternation if you name dating as part of that lineage. This also reminds me of the whole sugar baby phenomenon. I honestly wonder if anyone has looked into those womens’ life outcomes. It never once occurred to me to trade attention for dinner or drinks. I don’t even think any man has tried to buy me a drink who I wasn’t already friends with—perhaps it’s the RBF. Sometimes I wonder how easy life might have been if I had traded on beauty. But I wouldn’t be writing this comment if I had. It’s a trap.
Great points. I am curious about the sugar daddy thing. That was about 5 years ago? I’ll have to look. The destigmatization is interesting because it’s really split. On the one hand, form them, it’s supposed to be empowering. On the other hand, they us it as proof #1 of patriarchical power structures.
I think it is strange that some Sugar Babies are "Shocked" that men expect sex in exchange for paying their tuition (or other substantial payments), and not just "Dates". There's some major cognitive dissonance going on in the younger generation (And the millennials selling the service).
The sugars are normally Gen Z and very young millennials but agree. What'd you expect?
General millennial era wisdom was: You can "Hold out" past the cliche "3rd Date" for sex (See, that's why it exists), but you roll the dice unless you're a 10..
And girls/women know they're being judged as "Keepers" based on how "Adventurous" they are. But they're not even being judged as wife material. Just continuous girlfriend material....
Which STILL doesn't help me understand how they could think Sugar Daddies are there for anything but an eventual courtesan arrangement.
All I can think is...You must be in a lot of denial by the time you become a sugar baby. No one puts it into words to own it, but I imagine the sentiment must be: "Well, if I'm gonna FEEL like a whore, at least I'll have money and he won't dump me."
Maybe that's at the heart of OnlyFans too?
No matter my own experience, I lack the data to generalize for an entire social phenomenon.
I wonder if it’s the same people holding those positions or if this is a division among the intersectional crowd and the radical feminists having the latter position. Honestly exploring the sugar daddy thing would be interesting, because it was at its height about 10-15 years ago.
From what I've seen, it's absolutely a division. We are SOOO W.E.I.R.D. about sex!
{...We are SOOO W.E.I.R.D. about sex!...}
Well, it's part of the depop-plan ...
leading to the current birth-rates.
There ain't NO coincidences ...
There's something odd there too.
I have to bring up one of my favorite exchanges with my grandmother. She made a comment about my sister and her boyfriend: “why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free?”
I said (paraphrasing all these decades later): “That’s a good point, Grandma. If I get married and “buy the cow,” the woman gets half my salary for the rest of my life. The average married couple has sex twice a week. If we do the math, that means that every time I “get the milk,” it costs me $$$$ (I actually did the math). But if I go to a prostitute, according to some quick searched on the internet, it will only cost me $$$.
“So, Grandma, the best thing for me to do is not get married, but hire hookers twice a week. Thanks for helping me understand that.”
Yeah, I got into a lot of hot water for that.
One of my arguments for legalized prostitution is it’s honest. A lot of dating/mating isn’t, as you’ve rightly pointed out.
Lol. I’m sure that didn’t go over well but there’s a reason why prostitution has been so ubiquitious for so long. I’d rather have legal prostitution than have my girls taken advantage of by men just for sex.
Agreed. You kind of have to take sex off the table one way or another (maybe because you’re already having it, maybe not) in order to have a good conversation about a possible partnership.
Absolutely fantastic piece! I’m going to use it with my young clients (I’ll be sending this to them) because it breaks down a lot of social elephants in the room. My husband and I often laugh about the concept and in some instances when it comes to work, “you’re a prostitute for someone.” Selling sex indirectly because of a position at work, etc.
Awesome and I’d love to hear their thoughts when you have them read this.
The men that want to go dutch on a date are often told to get lost by the woman. The prostitution scenario is often enforced by women.
Absolutely. Let’s not forget that today’s women demand credit card reports prior to first dates.
I've seen it.
"Yes, yes, yes...." "No, no, no..." Great writing makes you think. And I'm thinking.... My first reaction to this was how brave it was to take on this topic, and how well you made your argument. But while the problem is well identified, the title is "How to Fix Dating," and you don't seem to suggest a fix. You hint at it with your personal anecdote. And, it's gnawing at me, this overly aggressive interpretation of the act of "buying someone a drink." Let me explain.
I'm a widow. After my wife passed away, I did some online dating, which I came to view as "online introductions," not "online dating," because you don't date online, you meet online, then move to real life. My intent was to meet someone to spend the rest of my life with, and with my two young kids.
I bought a lot of drinks and dinners. Was that a form of "prostitution?" I don't think so, it was a process: I invited women to dinner, and, even if there was an instant "this isn't going to work" feeling, I appreciated meeting new people, and I didn't expect (or want) anything more. Occasionally, dinner led to more dates. Occasionally, it led to sex. But not because I paid for that first dinner. Relationships formed because I liked some of the people I met.
Is that prostitution? I don't think so. It's process. So what are we trying to "fix?"
It seems to me that the line between prostitution and process is blurry at best, much more blurry than suggested in this post, and paved by intent, respect, communication, or lack thereof. Put another way, in your personal example, you and your wife had well-communicated intent and respect for each other. Does it matter whether you met at a birthday party, a bar, or a brothel? Barack and Michelle Obama's first date included a movie. Was it OK if he paid?
So what I'm left a bit cold by the autofilled idea that buying a drink is low-grade prostitution, no matter how well articulated. I'm left wondering what the "fix" is to spread more intentional dating.
- Change the name of online dating to online introductions?
- Elect and celebrate leaders who model good intentions and respect?
- Better parenting?
- Training AI companions to better promote respectful dialog, as their use grows?
Maybe this would be a good follow up post.
Well done, Michael!
Great points and that’s something I struggled with. I tried to caveate because my goal wan’t ‘all dating’ but more along the lines of “if we name the underlying context, we can be better prepared to manage the other layers’ I could have probably pulled that out better.
I cut a personal example where I played the numbers game with a girl once. It was odd how she reacted as the ‘ledger’ became ‘unballanced’ I felt like. On the other hand, I’ve met girls who absolutly expect to be treated like a flapper and yet would hate the insiuation but were always complaining about being taken advantage of.
My goal was to name a problem in the foundation, provide a few insights on how to manage it but more to the point, naming the problem is half the fix I think?
Yes, naming the problem is a good. But I'm still struggling on what the "name' is. Maybe there's a spectrum you've identified:
"Insincere" Relations (money, sex, or power driven)
.
.
.
"Sincere" Relations (respectful, cooperative, thoughtful)
Whether you pay for a drink, dinner, or a movie doesn't determine your place on this spectrum, and reframes the discussion. Then, we could turn to naming the actual problem: are we saying the "problem" is there are more Insincere Relations than before? I wonder about that.
So that’s a great point. I agree there are more insincere with the advent of dating. For a girl there’s the idea that if she doesn’t put out after 3 dates then he’s going to move one. There’s the new phenomina of the ‘situationship’ which doesn’t require commitment. The irony is that it’s not like Gen Z is having the most, and best sex. That peaked with Gen X and Gen Z is actually quite sexless and relationshipless. It’s become so incincere, no-one is even doing it.!
I'm surprised your argument caused such controversy. Seems pretty intuitive that people can buy sexual services/companionship with things other than currency.
The old saying is that prostitution is the oldest profession. That's false, but there was certainly (non-sacred) prostitution in Bronze Age Mesopotamia, by around 2,400 B.C. Currency wasn't invented till around 600 B.C. So men were buying time with prostitutes with good and services for nearly two thousand years before they could have done it with coins.
Often, they were paying with food, protection, or a place by the fire and out of the cold. Or whatever the man had that the woman needed. The line between prostitute and a mate, or profession and need, have always been tenuous.
That debate was over 500 comments and it created a ton of waves. The irony was the group 'founder' was dating and then married a girl who was desperate to get out of South Africa so they were dealing with a layer of that exchange and I think the topic landed a little too close to home.
Tbh, I think prostitution disguised as dating is just the end result of an atomized, individualized consumer culture. I don’t think this is avoidable with capitalism. Hence, the online discourse about “high value men” etc. I don’t think our birth rates or relationships will recover from this until systemic change occurs organically, over time , in response to the status quo. I don’t think any kind of revolution can fix it.
That’s a really interesting point. I hadn’t really tied that concept in put it plays a role.
Dating, in all of its permutations, needs to be destroyed. It is a horrible system however it is used.
I agree. At least what we have now.
Mind you, this is the subject of a lot of my fiction, and theology writing. A LOT.
Very entertaining. Point interestingly made. If people thought of "prostitution" just like any other contract for services, like with the plumber or the roofer - you pay, you get what you want and need, they wouldn't be so funny about pretending. It's worth mentioning that there are women out there who don't drink. Don't offer to buy us a drink if you want to date us. LOL. Also worth mentioning are the guys who are going after older women, sometimes 20-30 years older. I know of a 770-year-oldwoman "dating" a guy in his 20s. We should call that "prostitution" as well. Fair is fair. 🤣🤣🤣
So many layers to this for sure. I haven't seen as much if the older women dating.
so-called boytoys are a thing and seems just as transactional as men's traditional approach
to women. Radical Feminism blew up the older mores, but instead of creating a new paradigm, frequently just took independence as a reason (excuse) to do the same things to males. Not blaming women; it's a natural human tendency leaning into 'getting even'. But I would compare it to a black musician taking advantage or credit for a white musician's creativity, because so many whites had done that to black musicians. Not right in either case. In the long history of 'mankind' (womankind ?), we have managed to royally fowl up what is basically a very simple matter. We suck at birth and generally want to continue doing that as long as possible.
There’s certainly a lot of that going on!
I just don't understand why you think it has to be a "get even" reaction instead of a simple, "independence works and is simpler" attitude. For myself and all the other single, independent women I know, it's most definitely not a "get even." We just like not having to put up with someone else's BS. If anything, the younger dudes chasing older women for their money is the "get even" male version of the female "gold digger" stereotype.
Thanks for your comment, but maybe you missed that I did not say it “has to be” get even, and I did not limit it to only women, but to humans in general. People who prioritize “justice” as in justice warriors seem to stress retribution over forgiveness. What I lament is the lack of a more wholistic model where all participants are free to be fulfilled; no one being entitled, but each one being valued. I sense a bit of an edge, a defensive attitude, in your response. My observation is based only on my experience of self-described feminists and people of color who were coming from being hurt by an unfair system. Humans do typically react to injustice by wanting to get even, altho that's just the first step to healing. Then there is reconciliation and acceptance. Lastly, no one likes bs or needs to put up with it, but it is rare to find humans who have eliminated all bs from their behavior. It seems like part and parcel of the human equation, but No one's perfect. Perhaps I chose the wrong ladies
Nailed it! This names the thing that's driven me nuts for years. Thank you!
Awesome to hear!
DAYUM! This hit so hard on my experience dating. I’m supposed to feel empowered but each time, I felt the pressure to ‘sell’ from many men and my lady friends giving advice.
Glad to hear I’m not the only one!
With respect, I think you have missed the point that dating is INVOLUNTARY prostitution for men that many women support.. Tell a woman that you want to go dutch, or for a walk in the park (free) or a coffee data ($5), and watch her tell the man to take a hike.
Very true!
I love the practical advice here, not only because it's practical and direct, but also because it can function as a litmus test.
And by that I mean, if a woman (or man) is not ready to have that conversation - the "should we be married, from a practical point of view" conversation - yet, then they are not a good partner. Because they still view the game as a game, consciously or not. A game of impressing and posturing and trading and status seeking and playing tricks around unspoken boundaries and expectations.
And that is a child's view of relationships. And, quite clearly, our dating culture is childish. It's impractical, it's idealistic, it's based on fairy tales and ignorance of uncomfortable truths. The people who play these games (and the people who aren't willing to discuss the prositution aspect) haven't broken through the ceiling of that game and reached the point of actually being ready for the practical considerations of a marriage.
That's a good point about it being childish. What else are we doing in those relationships?
There is a Seinfeld episode that's about this, or something similar. Elaine starts spending time with a guy who works at a clothing store who promises to get her a discount on a dress. He delays the possibility of her getting the discount to try and keep her spending time with him. At one point when Elaine is trying to figure out if he is, Kramer suggests that he's thinking the same of her. Kramer says towards the end of the conversation "Only when we talk openly will there be a free exchange of sex for discounts".
Sienfeld was ahead of so many of these topics decades ago!
not surprised that this thread blew up a bit. It does affirm how unsettled the nature of male/female relationships are/continue to be. I have seen comments in other discussions about how young men do not know what to do anymore- to get laid ! And that may drive a lot of angst and/or drive acts of violence like school shootings. (and the furry ultra right wing weirdness).
Glad I lived my formative days in the era before a lot of this went off the rails. Dating was more innocent pre mid 1960's. Does 'dating' mean screwing now ? I feel like our culture has over-sexualized a great deal of life nowadays...(spellcheck wants me to use ' serialized' instead of sexualized, which does break my argument), but historically, we humans have not dealt very well or very honestly with the frank fact of our carnal natures, which I would suggest is a gift of God to humanity,,,,birds do it, bees do it. almost all creatures do it, but humans have made it into a stage to enact all sorts of other dramas. Without desire, life would die out, like some idealistic cult (there was one) which believed only in celibacy. Good luck in trying to unravel all the threads...you have opened a big cans of worms, but then maybe it is time someone tried to have an open discussion, but not an open marriage. yikes..
The worst part about it is that everything we are told we aren’t supposed to do are exactly the things that women respond to… unless they don’t. Like how 50 Shades of Grey about a Billionaire Rapist was a blockbuster while #Metoo was accusing billionaires of using their power to seduce women.
I would wager that our current commander-in-chief's comment about "grab them by the..." actually gave him a bounce in the 2016 vote, because it reaffirmed heterosexuality as normal, At a time when a lot of regular folks (and women) were turned off by gays demanding so much attention.
One issue for many is "flirting" is no longer an acceptable form of role-playing or indicating interest, like it used to be...
Yeah, It’s crazy and also absurd when he said that and people lost their minds yet I’ve had a woman grab me by the junk in a bar and was told I was supposed to like it… at the same time they were losing their minds about Trump. I wrote about that more here which is highly related.
https://www.polymathicbeing.com/p/clothing-and-sex
The author is not incorrect but to quote Oscar Wilde: " If you are going to speak the truth make them laugh. Otherwise, they will kill you.
Lol. How would you pull that one off here?
Lol. Having been metaphorically chased with pitchforks and torches due to my views for most of my life, I am still trying to pull it off IRL.
Oh, whew… so it’s just aspirational! At least I’m a good runner.
Forgive me, I’m having a bit of trouble collecting all of this, but what exactly is the practical solution? The problem is that dating is like prostitution, so the solution is… to not buy drinks for women at the bar? Then get into a long term relationship and lay out boundaries ahead of marriage. That seems like it’s skipping a few steps. And the advice doesn’t do a whole lot for men who already weren’t buying women drinks at bars. This was overall a good article, but I’m just not sure what it’s trying to say towards the end.
Good point. I think the practical solution is that we understand what’s happening below the surface. I explained how I handled it and you’re right, I should have stepped back and identified that my wife and I met through a friend group and knew each other for two years before we started dating. So for the immediate, how do you meet a girl, that’s a little more nuanced but something that I think needs to be improved too, mostly because we’ve lost so many of the social settings that used to enable that.
I think that most relationships are transactional in the sense of the law of reciprocity. As you correctly pointed out, you see that take place in the immediate form with dating. Friendships that are one sided usually don’t last or don’t seem healthy. A longer transactional arc would be that a parent and child. On the surface that doesn’t seem transactional, however, the reciprocity on the child’s part typically comes when the parent is old enough to need care. Most cultures honest this transaction. But we in the West tend to pay caregivers to deal with it instead. Either way, there’s a transaction. Unless one party violates the social contract (abuse or otherwise), there’s usually a visceral response to the person that doesn’t honor the expected transaction. We usually call them names.
Yeah, I struggled with that element too. My relationship with Lisa is transactional because there has to be balance. Yet it’s selfless transaction, not selfish transactions which I think is the core thread.