This was deeply enjoyable- you managed to touch a sensitive topic and dissect it without apology, where most wouldn’t go near this. And fwiw, I agree completely that dating is low grade prostitution. The thing is, if prostitutes are sex workers and sex work is destigmatized as bourgeois white women are attempting, then there really shouldn’t be any consternation if you name dating as part of that lineage. This also reminds me of the whole sugar baby phenomenon. I honestly wonder if anyone has looked into those womens’ life outcomes. It never once occurred to me to trade attention for dinner or drinks. I don’t even think any man has tried to buy me a drink who I wasn’t already friends with—perhaps it’s the RBF. Sometimes I wonder how easy life might have been if I had traded on beauty. But I wouldn’t be writing this comment if I had. It’s a trap.
Great points. I am curious about the sugar daddy thing. That was about 5 years ago? I’ll have to look. The destigmatization is interesting because it’s really split. On the one hand, form them, it’s supposed to be empowering. On the other hand, they us it as proof #1 of patriarchical power structures.
I wonder if it’s the same people holding those positions or if this is a division among the intersectional crowd and the radical feminists having the latter position. Honestly exploring the sugar daddy thing would be interesting, because it was at its height about 10-15 years ago.
I think it is strange that some Sugar Babies are "Shocked" that men expect sex in exchange for paying their tuition (or other substantial payments), and not just "Dates". There's some major cognitive dissonance going on in the younger generation (And the millennials selling the service).
General millennial era wisdom was: You can "Hold out" past the cliche "3rd Date" for sex (See, that's why it exists), but you roll the dice unless you're a 10..
And girls/women know they're being judged as "Keepers" based on how "Adventurous" they are. But they're not even being judged as wife material. Just continuous girlfriend material....
Which STILL doesn't help me understand how they could think Sugar Daddies are there for anything but an eventual courtesan arrangement.
All I can think is...You must be in a lot of denial by the time you become a sugar baby. No one puts it into words to own it, but I imagine the sentiment must be: "Well, if I'm gonna FEEL like a whore, at least I'll have money and he won't dump me."
Maybe that's at the heart of OnlyFans too?
No matter my own experience, I lack the data to generalize for an entire social phenomenon.
I have to bring up one of my favorite exchanges with my grandmother. She made a comment about my sister and her boyfriend: “why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free?”
I said (paraphrasing all these decades later): “That’s a good point, Grandma. If I get married and “buy the cow,” the woman gets half my salary for the rest of my life. The average married couple has sex twice a week. If we do the math, that means that every time I “get the milk,” it costs me $$$$ (I actually did the math). But if I go to a prostitute, according to some quick searched on the internet, it will only cost me $$$.
“So, Grandma, the best thing for me to do is not get married, but hire hookers twice a week. Thanks for helping me understand that.”
Yeah, I got into a lot of hot water for that.
One of my arguments for legalized prostitution is it’s honest. A lot of dating/mating isn’t, as you’ve rightly pointed out.
Lol. I’m sure that didn’t go over well but there’s a reason why prostitution has been so ubiquitious for so long. I’d rather have legal prostitution than have my girls taken advantage of by men just for sex.
Agreed. You kind of have to take sex off the table one way or another (maybe because you’re already having it, maybe not) in order to have a good conversation about a possible partnership.
Absolutely fantastic piece! I’m going to use it with my young clients (I’ll be sending this to them) because it breaks down a lot of social elephants in the room. My husband and I often laugh about the concept and in some instances when it comes to work, “you’re a prostitute for someone.” Selling sex indirectly because of a position at work, etc.
I'm surprised your argument caused such controversy. Seems pretty intuitive that people can buy sexual services/companionship with things other than currency.
The old saying is that prostitution is the oldest profession. That's false, but there was certainly (non-sacred) prostitution in Bronze Age Mesopotamia, by around 2,400 B.C. Currency wasn't invented till around 600 B.C. So men were buying time with prostitutes with good and services for nearly two thousand years before they could have done it with coins.
Often, they were paying with food, protection, or a place by the fire and out of the cold. Or whatever the man had that the woman needed. The line between prostitute and a mate, or profession and need, have always been tenuous.
That debate was over 500 comments and it created a ton of waves. The irony was the group 'founder' was dating and then married a girl who was desperate to get out of South Africa so they were dealing with a layer of that exchange and I think the topic landed a little too close to home.
DAYUM! This hit so hard on my experience dating. I’m supposed to feel empowered but each time, I felt the pressure to ‘sell’ from many men and my lady friends giving advice.
With respect, I think you have missed the point that dating is INVOLUNTARY prostitution for men that many women support.. Tell a woman that you want to go dutch, or for a walk in the park (free) or a coffee data ($5), and watch her tell the man to take a hike.
I agree with you to a degree. Buying a woman a drink can—in your example of entertainers in Korea—be a low level version of sex work. But it can also be an interest test. Part of the problem with online dating is its low cost of entry. I knew a guy—he did eventually quit dating—who used to get home from work, drink beer, and harass women on dating sites legit every night. But I went drinking with this guy in a friend group a half dozen times or so and never saw him approach a woman irl. To me, yes, we are too transactional in our dating culture, but we also need far higher cost to meet women so men will behave appropriately during the opportunity. By “appropriately” I don’t even mean politically correct, etc… I mean when a guy has endless online women at his disposal, he may never learn anything from rejection. He keeps trying the same bad tactics, because he sees dating as a numbers game. But when you limited opportunities meeting women, and you need to make something happen right now, you will learn what it takes to keep a woman’s interest and it’s not spending a ton of money. Part of the reason why prostitution will never work, quasi or otherwise, is because, even if women gain materially for it, it’s lame to them and they rarely respect the men they extracted the resources from. The odd intricacy you failed to mention is that, yes, status did replace money in low-level prostitution, but that also women usually find men who horde resources and fail to share (dark triad) most attractive. The highest status move that exists is to demand a woman have sex with you for free.
I don't think dating is prostitution, because prostitution is buying your body - not simply your time, touch or commitment BECAUSE of your sex. That is a big distinction. Underlying it, is the assumption that no human person has a purchase price for their "Self". That is why the only legal transaction in which a person can be bound to another, is 2-person marriage - an equal exchange of bondage (A life for a life, if you will). It is also why adult parent and adult child cannot marry - there is no equal exchange possible, because another bond supersedes it that cannot be dissolved, only defiled. The contract is inherently unequal (This is also why Woody Allen marrying his adult adopted daughter when she turned 18/21 is so disgusting).
Very entertaining. Point interestingly made. If people thought of "prostitution" just like any other contract for services, like with the plumber or the roofer - you pay, you get what you want and need, they wouldn't be so funny about pretending. It's worth mentioning that there are women out there who don't drink. Don't offer to buy us a drink if you want to date us. LOL. Also worth mentioning are the guys who are going after older women, sometimes 20-30 years older. I know of a 770-year-oldwoman "dating" a guy in his 20s. We should call that "prostitution" as well. Fair is fair. 🤣🤣🤣
This was deeply enjoyable- you managed to touch a sensitive topic and dissect it without apology, where most wouldn’t go near this. And fwiw, I agree completely that dating is low grade prostitution. The thing is, if prostitutes are sex workers and sex work is destigmatized as bourgeois white women are attempting, then there really shouldn’t be any consternation if you name dating as part of that lineage. This also reminds me of the whole sugar baby phenomenon. I honestly wonder if anyone has looked into those womens’ life outcomes. It never once occurred to me to trade attention for dinner or drinks. I don’t even think any man has tried to buy me a drink who I wasn’t already friends with—perhaps it’s the RBF. Sometimes I wonder how easy life might have been if I had traded on beauty. But I wouldn’t be writing this comment if I had. It’s a trap.
Great points. I am curious about the sugar daddy thing. That was about 5 years ago? I’ll have to look. The destigmatization is interesting because it’s really split. On the one hand, form them, it’s supposed to be empowering. On the other hand, they us it as proof #1 of patriarchical power structures.
I wonder if it’s the same people holding those positions or if this is a division among the intersectional crowd and the radical feminists having the latter position. Honestly exploring the sugar daddy thing would be interesting, because it was at its height about 10-15 years ago.
From what I've seen, it's absolutely a division. We are SOOO W.E.I.R.D. about sex!
{...We are SOOO W.E.I.R.D. about sex!...}
Well, it's part of the depop-plan ...
leading to the current birth-rates.
There ain't NO coincidences ...
There's something odd there too.
I think it is strange that some Sugar Babies are "Shocked" that men expect sex in exchange for paying their tuition (or other substantial payments), and not just "Dates". There's some major cognitive dissonance going on in the younger generation (And the millennials selling the service).
The sugars are normally Gen Z and very young millennials but agree. What'd you expect?
General millennial era wisdom was: You can "Hold out" past the cliche "3rd Date" for sex (See, that's why it exists), but you roll the dice unless you're a 10..
And girls/women know they're being judged as "Keepers" based on how "Adventurous" they are. But they're not even being judged as wife material. Just continuous girlfriend material....
Which STILL doesn't help me understand how they could think Sugar Daddies are there for anything but an eventual courtesan arrangement.
All I can think is...You must be in a lot of denial by the time you become a sugar baby. No one puts it into words to own it, but I imagine the sentiment must be: "Well, if I'm gonna FEEL like a whore, at least I'll have money and he won't dump me."
Maybe that's at the heart of OnlyFans too?
No matter my own experience, I lack the data to generalize for an entire social phenomenon.
I have to bring up one of my favorite exchanges with my grandmother. She made a comment about my sister and her boyfriend: “why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free?”
I said (paraphrasing all these decades later): “That’s a good point, Grandma. If I get married and “buy the cow,” the woman gets half my salary for the rest of my life. The average married couple has sex twice a week. If we do the math, that means that every time I “get the milk,” it costs me $$$$ (I actually did the math). But if I go to a prostitute, according to some quick searched on the internet, it will only cost me $$$.
“So, Grandma, the best thing for me to do is not get married, but hire hookers twice a week. Thanks for helping me understand that.”
Yeah, I got into a lot of hot water for that.
One of my arguments for legalized prostitution is it’s honest. A lot of dating/mating isn’t, as you’ve rightly pointed out.
Lol. I’m sure that didn’t go over well but there’s a reason why prostitution has been so ubiquitious for so long. I’d rather have legal prostitution than have my girls taken advantage of by men just for sex.
Agreed. You kind of have to take sex off the table one way or another (maybe because you’re already having it, maybe not) in order to have a good conversation about a possible partnership.
Absolutely fantastic piece! I’m going to use it with my young clients (I’ll be sending this to them) because it breaks down a lot of social elephants in the room. My husband and I often laugh about the concept and in some instances when it comes to work, “you’re a prostitute for someone.” Selling sex indirectly because of a position at work, etc.
Awesome and I’d love to hear their thoughts when you have them read this.
The men that want to go dutch on a date are often told to get lost by the woman. The prostitution scenario is often enforced by women.
I've seen it.
Absolutely. Let’s not forget that today’s women demand credit card reports prior to first dates.
I'm surprised your argument caused such controversy. Seems pretty intuitive that people can buy sexual services/companionship with things other than currency.
The old saying is that prostitution is the oldest profession. That's false, but there was certainly (non-sacred) prostitution in Bronze Age Mesopotamia, by around 2,400 B.C. Currency wasn't invented till around 600 B.C. So men were buying time with prostitutes with good and services for nearly two thousand years before they could have done it with coins.
Often, they were paying with food, protection, or a place by the fire and out of the cold. Or whatever the man had that the woman needed. The line between prostitute and a mate, or profession and need, have always been tenuous.
That debate was over 500 comments and it created a ton of waves. The irony was the group 'founder' was dating and then married a girl who was desperate to get out of South Africa so they were dealing with a layer of that exchange and I think the topic landed a little too close to home.
Nailed it! This names the thing that's driven me nuts for years. Thank you!
Awesome to hear!
DAYUM! This hit so hard on my experience dating. I’m supposed to feel empowered but each time, I felt the pressure to ‘sell’ from many men and my lady friends giving advice.
Glad to hear I’m not the only one!
With respect, I think you have missed the point that dating is INVOLUNTARY prostitution for men that many women support.. Tell a woman that you want to go dutch, or for a walk in the park (free) or a coffee data ($5), and watch her tell the man to take a hike.
Very true!
I agree with you to a degree. Buying a woman a drink can—in your example of entertainers in Korea—be a low level version of sex work. But it can also be an interest test. Part of the problem with online dating is its low cost of entry. I knew a guy—he did eventually quit dating—who used to get home from work, drink beer, and harass women on dating sites legit every night. But I went drinking with this guy in a friend group a half dozen times or so and never saw him approach a woman irl. To me, yes, we are too transactional in our dating culture, but we also need far higher cost to meet women so men will behave appropriately during the opportunity. By “appropriately” I don’t even mean politically correct, etc… I mean when a guy has endless online women at his disposal, he may never learn anything from rejection. He keeps trying the same bad tactics, because he sees dating as a numbers game. But when you limited opportunities meeting women, and you need to make something happen right now, you will learn what it takes to keep a woman’s interest and it’s not spending a ton of money. Part of the reason why prostitution will never work, quasi or otherwise, is because, even if women gain materially for it, it’s lame to them and they rarely respect the men they extracted the resources from. The odd intricacy you failed to mention is that, yes, status did replace money in low-level prostitution, but that also women usually find men who horde resources and fail to share (dark triad) most attractive. The highest status move that exists is to demand a woman have sex with you for free.
You’ve highlighted some great points and I agree. It’s all part of the messy layers!
Dating, in all of its permutations, needs to be destroyed. It is a horrible system however it is used.
I agree. At least what we have now.
Mind you, this is the subject of a lot of my fiction, and theology writing. A LOT.
I don't think dating is prostitution, because prostitution is buying your body - not simply your time, touch or commitment BECAUSE of your sex. That is a big distinction. Underlying it, is the assumption that no human person has a purchase price for their "Self". That is why the only legal transaction in which a person can be bound to another, is 2-person marriage - an equal exchange of bondage (A life for a life, if you will). It is also why adult parent and adult child cannot marry - there is no equal exchange possible, because another bond supersedes it that cannot be dissolved, only defiled. The contract is inherently unequal (This is also why Woody Allen marrying his adult adopted daughter when she turned 18/21 is so disgusting).
Oopps ... 🙄🙄🙄 !!!
👍👍👍 🎯🎯🎯 🤣🤣🤣
When did you get your black belt in mixed mental arts? Posts like this show you’re well on your way to red.
Haha great stuff brother. Entertaining and thought provoking as always.
Awesome! The key to Mixed Mental Arts is that you're always a white belt!
https://www.polymathicbeing.com/p/embracing-my-white-belt
Haha this is the way on the mats too! Loved that post
Very entertaining. Point interestingly made. If people thought of "prostitution" just like any other contract for services, like with the plumber or the roofer - you pay, you get what you want and need, they wouldn't be so funny about pretending. It's worth mentioning that there are women out there who don't drink. Don't offer to buy us a drink if you want to date us. LOL. Also worth mentioning are the guys who are going after older women, sometimes 20-30 years older. I know of a 770-year-oldwoman "dating" a guy in his 20s. We should call that "prostitution" as well. Fair is fair. 🤣🤣🤣
So many layers to this for sure. I haven't seen as much if the older women dating.