15 years a vegan - and a professional athlete. I appreciate reading your perspectives - however I wouldn’t say using personal examples of who you know and your objective view of healthy as scientific example. It’s like me saying I know a guy who ate red meat every day and then he got cancer - I cannot say for sure it’s a causal relationship but it’s an attention grabbing statement. As others have mentioned there are many cultures who thrive off a mostly vegan diet, and the supplement industry doesn’t rely only on vegans to stay afloat, that’s for sure. In fact the luxury of the first world is that we have access to factory farmed meat at every single meal every single day. We have access to milk of other animals in almost every meal. So if what is “natural” is an argument then the standard American diet is far from natural. I accept that I live in a country where I have choice and access to whatever food I want. So if I have that privilege why not then CHOOSE foods that do not equate animal cruelty, suffering, unsustainable farming practices and health consequences. If ominvores also eat the same processed shit I do, is it at least not worth striving for less harm? You will find most ethical vegans also embrace other sustainable practices, “dieting” vegans will probably not remain vegan, and move onto the next fad diet. I’d rather take a processed b12 pill than know that I need to rely on someone else slaughtering a frightened animal, which is ironically also filled with artificial processed feed, and medicines. . It comes down to what is humane and sustainable. Feed the soy to the humans. Use lab grown shit for nutrients for all I care, evolve away from cruelty and excess. If we lived In a society where we all owned one cow and we could sustainably share that cow amongst our close family (some cultures do live like this) then perhaps my diet choice would look different. But we don’t live like that, especially in the West, so let’s adapt, ethically.
Good points. If I were to send a colony to Mars, the diet would look a lot more vegan than carnivore. The bigger question is whether we fully understand the physiological consequences. I'm not criticizing the vegan diet writ large trying to contextualize it.
There are a lot of questions about the sustainability and harmlessness of vegan. After my uncle harvests his soy and corn fields, carrion birds flock in for a reason.
If you're OK with the supplementations and synthetic processing that's fine. I too am bothered by how bad our entire food supply is from meat to veggies. My observations of veganism shouldn't be construed to a promotion of our food supply.
We have to be skeptical of observational studies because of confounding variables, but some of the most interesting and high-quality studies in this space come from decades of Adventist health studies, which neutralize many of those variables by looking at members of a shared faith culture that receive the same health-focused message from their faith and church leaders.
The average Adventist lives years longer than the average Californian.
And among the Adventists:
The adjusted hazard ratio (HR) for all-cause mortality in all vegetarians combined vs nonvegetarians was 0.88 (95% CI, 0.80-0.97).
The adjusted HR for all-cause mortality in vegans was 0.85 (95% CI, 0.73-1.01);
in lacto-ovo–vegetarians, 0.91 (95% CI, 0.82-1.00);
in pesco-vegetarians, 0.81 (95% CI, 0.69-0.94); and in semi-vegetarians, 0.92 (95% CI, 0.75-1.13)
I think all this is tentative. And some confounding variables are hard to correct for. But there's very reason to think that directionally, this sort of whole foods-focused vegetarian, pesco-vegetarian, or vegan diet is just fine, if not completely optimal.
Compared to most fad diets, it's a massive step up. I'd argue that anyone claiming definitively what exactly must be consumed, in what ratio, is going more more on dogma than precise science.
I'm not a vegan because I don't hold the ideology, and you know from my writing how I feel about self-labeling making us stupid.
But I have severe autoimmune issues and allergies and avoid meat and dairy because it keeps my colitis in remission while avoiding several other problems. And even though I can eat eggs and honey, I rarely do this, and perhaps consume them twice a year on average. I take a B12 pill. I get most of my protein from whole legumes, but have no problem taking a scoop of pea protein powder on days where it's required to reach my .80 to .90 g / pound protein target. Outside of this, I eat very little of the processed foods you spend a lot time talking about in this article as if its an inextricable element of a plant-based diet. If I go visit family I'll probably be served a beyond burger and will eat it, but it's not really a thing for me. Most of that stuff didn't even exist when i started twenty years ago. I do like eating some tofu perhaps once a week, but the health benefits are well established and rather lindy after centuries of tofu eating in China and Japan.
Despite this, my health is excellent after 20 years on variations of this regime, and I perform very well athletically in all my pursuits.
I'm all for calling out the problems of processed food, but I'm not sure there's a strong body of evidence pointing out the downsides of a well-planned vegan diet. Compared to the dietary idiocy of the American public, whatever marginal benefit that might accrue from adding small amounts of animal products seems so statistically small that I'm not sure it's worth getting worked up about.
I agree that most vegans don't eat well. But then most omnivorous Americans make even poorer food choices, statistically speaking.
There's a whole series of good Adventist studies, but here's one to start with:
I'd only be careful in conflating vegan with vegetarian. Adventists are vegetarian. I'm not criticizing vegetarian diets at all. I do find that 95% of arguments for veganism rely on studies of vegetarianism.
If you read those studies you'll find that many Adventists are vegans, though more are vegetarians of various stripes. There's a combined vegetarian category that combines the vegans and vegetarians, but they also break out the smaller vegan group.
Valid. Again, not saying it's a terrible diet. Just that it requires some pretty advanced technologies to achieve it. Who knows what a Martian diet may look like. It might be healthier but it certainly requires a deep understanding of human biology and gastroenterology.
Good points. I can appreciate you kept it to those 3 points. I think that critique is fair. What is healthy for 1 individual can be very unhealthy for another. (Which is why I hate the way some are religious about “their” diet). I was vegan for 1.5 years before throwing in the towel. I learned a lot though.
1: Not everyone has the biology for it. Everyone needs to find what works for them (don’t convince an eskimo who lives on whale blubber to be vegan). We’ve all evolved differently with what we can digest.
2: The honeymoon period is typically 3-6 months where you eat more plant fiber and feel lighter. This often leads to feeling great at first.
3: Lethargy is real. I got to where I could not sustain high intensity exercise or longer activities. For me, I certainly felt anemic no matter what I tried.
4: Despite carefully supplementing and thinking I was getting enough nutrients, those cell walls plants have make it harder to absorb and are less bioavailable. So you may not be getting as much protein absorption as one thinks. No matter how much plant protein I ate, I could not stop my muscle atrophy despite working out.
5: We became vegan because of going down the rabbit hole of YouTube videos and documentaries on factory farming. But I was horrified to learn how many lives are killed to eat 1 avocado. Let alone all the other needed mono crops to sustain the diet. When you plow fields, you murder everything.
6: After I went on a mountain bike ride one morning after 1.5 years in, and couldn’t get off the couch all day, I quit. I ate 1 burger, and it was like a shot of cocaine.
7: If all lives matter, then 1 ethically raised free ranging cow will feed my family for about 3 months. Compared to the 10’s of thousands of small rodents, birds and insects that had to die for my veggies.
8: I found after 3 months in I was relying on highly processed supplements to attempt to maintain my nutrition levels. (1 of your points). It was very difficult to stay satiated so I eventually found myself snacking on a lot of packaged foods.
9: People will say “their” diet works and give studies based on a typical American diet. But if all you did was eat grass you’d still probably be healthier than typical Americans.
10: Vegans will say I did the diet wrong. 😂
I guess the real goal is to find foods that work for you that are hopefully healthy, sustainable, and ethically sourced. And then give everyone grace given people’s differing circumstances.
The bioavailability element is tough because plants are hard to get nutrients from and often have some pretty crazy toxins. I was always suprised when I realized how much our brains likely grew because of adding meat to our diet due to the incredible nutrient density.
Factory animal farming is atrocious. However monocrop farming is equally bad. It just depends on where you draw the line for what dies. Personally watching how till monocrop farming destroys the entire biome of the soil transitioning it from a complex organism to dead matter was crazy.
I experimented with the Whole Food Plant Based (aka vegan but less sanctimonious about it) way of eating for about two years. This type of veganism eschews the Impossible Burgers, Oreos, and other vegan junk foods in favor of a LOT of beans, lentils, and other legumes, fruits and vegetables. You're really supposed to not use oils at all, on the theory that oils are "processed" foods. So fats are obtained from things like avocados, nuts, seeds, etc.. I rebelled against the no-oil rule; as it is just really hard to make foods taste good without use of some sort of oils for cooking. I
I was constantly bloated, gassy and nauseous; I was told that these symptoms would abate as my digestive system adapted to the high volume of fiber. It never adapted.
I was also ravenously hungry, despite my stomach being upset most of the time. I suspect it had to do with the fact that as a shortish middle-aged lady, I had to be conscious of my caloric intake - and since beans and legumes are not particularly protein-dense, it's hard to hit your protein macros without going significantly over on calories. I mountain bike and lift weights, so my protein requirements are higher than a sedentary individual. "You don't really need that much protein! It's all a lie!" was the message from WFPB advocates; but I noticed my muscle mass and strength declining.
After two years, my stomach was still constantly upset, I was still bloated and uncomfortable yet oddly hungry, and now I was diagnosed with IBS. In desperation, I did a complete 180 and tried the carnivore diet for a couple weeks. Within three days the bloat was gone, I was "regular" again, and I felt significantly better both mentally and physically.
Since then, I have stayed on a balanced diet which includes animal products as well as a ton of vegetables and fruits; the only things I limit are sugar and processed food.
To my knowledge, there is not a single traditional culture that was fully vegan (there are certainly groups that have traditionally been mostly or fully vegetarian, but who still ate cheese and eggs).
I do know people who have done well on vegan diets, but I am clearly not one of those people.
Great insights. I've also known people who have had success with Vegan but they still shifted off after a short time. I haven't found a healthy vegan who has been on the diet for over 20 years. I do think you hit on something that some people can process food differently. For example, I'm Dutch and can process raw milk much better than 75% of the human population. That doesn't mean everyone should drink milk as they're lacto intollerant and that doesn't mean I shouldn't drink milk because no-one else can process it.
I strongly agree with your first point. After a long journey to treat severe digestive symptoms, the carnivore diet is what best ended up working for my physiology. After the past two years of being on the diet, I have also recently experienced a dramatic improvement in my mental health - more than I ever thought was possible. I know many other people who have benefited from carnivore or ketogenic diets in similar ways. There will always be a sizeable portion of people who cannot tolerate enough plant foods to sustain a vegan diet and even people like me who can't eat any. Since veganism cannot be universally applied, any attempts to enforce it through public policy are inherently authoritarian. People should be allowed to freely choose what works best for them.
I am not here to criticize anyone’s food choices or diet since I firmly believe that all diets have the potential for deficiencies if they are not balanced with other foods or fortified with the lacking vitamins and minerals. Every diet can be nutritionally adequate, but it requires planning to ensure the body receives all the essential nutrients.
I asked ChatGPT to list possible deficiencies across several diets, and here is what I got:
1. Vegetarian Diet Deficiencies
- Vitamin B12: Exclusion of meat and fish, which are primary sources of B12.
- Iron: Lack of heme iron from meat; plant-based iron (non-heme) is less bioavailable.
- Zinc: Lower absorption from plant sources due to phytates in legumes and grains.
- Omega-3 Fatty Acids: Absence of EPA and DHA, found in fish.
- Protein: May occur if there is insufficient variety in plant-based sources (e.g., legumes, nuts, seeds, and grains).
2. Vegan Diet Deficiencies
- Vitamin B12: Complete exclusion of animal products leaves no natural source of B12.
- Iron: Non-heme iron is less efficiently absorbed than heme iron.
- Calcium: Lack of dairy products, a significant calcium source in many diets.
- Vitamin D: Vegan diets usually exclude fortified dairy or fish; sunlight may not always suffice.
- Omega-3 Fatty Acids: No direct sources of EPA/DHA; ALA from seeds like flax and chia is inefficiently converted.
- Zinc: Phytates in plant-based foods inhibit zinc absorption.
- Iodine: No fish or dairy, and iodized salt is often overlooked.
- Iron: Infrequent consumption of meat may lead to insufficient iron intake.
- Vitamin B12: Irregular intake of animal products can lead to low B12 levels.
- Omega-3 Fatty Acids: Limited fish consumption may result in insufficient EPA/DHA intake.
- Calcium and Vitamin D: Limited dairy intake can reduce calcium and vitamin D levels.
4. Non-vegetarian diet Deficiencies
Fiber: Low whole grains, fruits, and vegetables can lead to insufficient dietary fiber.
- Vitamin C: Lack of fruits and vegetables may reduce intake of this essential vitamin.
- Folate: Limited leafy greens and legumes consumption can cause folate deficiencies.
- Magnesium: Low nuts, seeds, and whole grains intake can result in magnesium deficiency.
- Omega-3 Fatty Acids: Many non-vegetarians don’t consume enough fatty fish, leading to low EPA/DHA levels.
As seen above, any diet can result in multiple deficiencies if not planned correctly. Additionally, many diets rely on a global food supply in today's interconnected world. This reality makes it even more important for first- and non-first-world individuals to ensure that their nutrient needs are met, whether through locally available foods, imports, or fortified products.
Now, let me introduce you to a religion in India that has existed for around 2,500 years and its unique dietary practices. The religion is Jainism (https://tinyurl.com/muurkzbh)), and its diet is one of the most rigorous forms of spiritually motivated vegetarianism. Jainism advocates for a lacto-vegetarian diet, which excludes meat, fish, eggs, and even root and underground vegetables such as potatoes, garlic, onions, carrots, and mushrooms. The exclusion of root vegetables is based on the desire to avoid injuring small insects and microorganisms in the soil and prevent harm to the entire plant by uprooting it.
A lacto-vegetarian diet, as practiced by Jains, includes dairy products such as milk, yogurt, butter, cheese (made without animal rennet), cream, kefir, and honey. However, in recent decades, some followers of Jainism have transitioned away from consuming dairy products entirely due to concerns about the violence involved in modern industrial dairy farming practices. These individuals follow a diet beyond veganism, reflecting their deep commitment to the principle of Ahinsa(non-violence). So, it’s important to note that this shift is not limited to first-world countries but has also occurred in non-first-world regions.
Having observed many lacto-vegetarians and vegetarians, I’ve noticed that while deficiencies such as Vitamin D are relatively common, most individuals who consume a balanced lacto-vegetarian diet live long and healthy lives. The key to any diet's success lies in how well it is balanced and how deficiencies are addressed.
I do not believe that any one diet is inherently superior to another. Instead, it is about recognizing the limitations of your chosen diet and taking conscious steps to supplement or balance what is missing. Whether through fortified foods, supplements, or careful planning, balancing your diet makes the difference.
Sometimes, I feel you are trying to test the limit of Cunningham's Law with some of your posts: "The best way to get the right answer on the Internet is not to ask a question; it's to post the wrong answer."
The following graphic represents what happens after that:
Jainism is the go-to answer but for long term vegan cultures but, as you've pointed out, Jainism relied on animal protein in the form of Milk which is totally legit. Now that they have international trade and the ability for laboratory and processed proteins, they can eliminate milk from their diet but until that, they relied on Milk.
My goal wasn't to 'debunk' veganism but to contextualize what's required for veganism. If a person is cool with those conditions, more power to them. In fact, if I were to populate Mars, likely the diet would look a lot more vegan because I don't think we could haul animals there very well at least for the near term.
However, it's important to note that it's not a diet that we evolved eating, nor is it one we can do without modern technologies and international trade.
I have seen a pattern since the start of this year, so I thought I would ask. I have worked with a few other people who do this, so I am comfortable with people dropping bombs and seeing how everyone around them reacts. I do use it sometimes, too, when it is the only way to make people see the light.
I mean, this one and the one about Gen X were a bit like that. I've done similar in the past. One coming up in two weeks is on Algowhoring so batton down the hatches! 😄 But sacred cows to make the best burgers don't they?
That said, My three postulates for this essay are carrying through the critique quite well. It's not an issue per se but what I find facinating is how riled up it's gotten people when they even think there is a critique.
One person has come out and said something along the lines of "True, and I'm OK with that." To which I'm totally cool with that. It's kind of like religion. I've poked at how people interpret the bible literally. I don't care what they believe as long as people realize what they believe and why.
That a decent number got testy about this essay tells me they haven't really considered the full implications of Veganism. Just like poking at Christianity doens't mean the othe religions don't have their own problems, so too poking at veganism isn't meant to say the other diets are amazing.
I believe that we should look at everything important to us from our lenses. Here is the quote that I came across recently along with the Royal Society motto “Do not take anyone's word for it”:
“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.” - Buddha
I do like your analyses in general and I appreciate your work (part of my selected RSS feed), so I hope to change your mind regarding some of the facts you present here.
> Veganism is pretty simple. You eat nothing that has animal protein of any nature.
I would add **as is possible and practicable**. On a desert island with a pig I would eat the pig, if globalism and free trade would halt or civilization collapsed and in result it's not practical to eat Vegan diet no one should expect Vegans to not eat animal products. I would even say that you can consume animal products and be Vegan in that case (if it's not possible nor practicable otherwise), although this is probably more controversial take.
I would not say it's a first-world luxury, but it's much easier to strive on Vegan diet now than ever. It is probably more of a first-world luxury to eat meat every day than being Vegan. Why the Veganism as we know is more prevalent in West is that our philosophies around freedoms are easily transferable to non-human animals and we have a good philosophical foundations (both religious and secular) for it.
In countries where the philosophical foundations were also established people ate Vegan/Vegetarian diets even before globalization and technological progress (Buddhism in india, china, taiwan, vietnam ...).
#1: Whole Foods
Almost everyone is eating some amount of non-whole foods, so I am not sure why is it important if we are able to eat whole food only Vegan diet. I think the more interesting question is if it's possible to eat almost whole food diet and the answer is yes and pretty easily.
* Tofu, Tempeh for protein (how are these not mentioned?)
* B12 pill
* Exercise
Nobody needs to add highly concentrated pea protein nor coconut oil to their diet to stay healthy. If you have links saying otherwise please send them to me I stand corrected.
#2: Globalized food chain
You are correct that origins of different plants needed for healthy Vegan diet were brought from all over the word, but that does not mean it is still like that. US is the second biggest producer of soy beans for example.
#3: Ultra-processing
If you want you can completely skip ultra-processed foods in your diet. I do tend to eat some for both taste and convenience.
For anecdotal evidence there are non first-world countries which had practitioners of Veganism (Pure vegetarianism) for 100s of years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism
I'm mostly poking at the vegan is natural crowd. I will poke at the issues with our normal diet as well. There are huge issues like sugar which we looked at not long ago.
As far as I can find, you really couldn't have been pure vegan 50 years ago let alone 100 years ago.
Also not suggesting the typical diet is good by any means. I'm planning to write more on that in the future but I've already poked pretty hard at sugar.
While I appreciate the time and energy that went into this, I suggest you now take a similar approach to every diet and see where that leads you. 🤣 I’m not trying to be an asshole and am not a vegan, but nearly every diet today has uncomfortable truths. Nearly every diet requires a massive amount of outsourcing and processing. That’s not inherently good or bad, it just is.
I also think it’s important to note that I know a great many vegans who’ve been fairly healthy for 30+ years. Are they ridiculous? Sure, but so are people who can’t shut up about bacon or people who endlessly experiment with craft brewing. In fact, everyone I know who’s been avidly at anything for decades rarely talks endlessly about it unless specifically asked. And then… brace yourself for the flood of gabbing lol. This is true across diet, exercise, music, art, politics, history, etc. are their exceptions? Sure. But not as many as the general population assumes. The religious comparison is apt in many ways, but it can be made towards anything that anyone cares deeply about IMO.
Good point. I'm planning to poke at more. We already looked at sugar writ large and we've looked at fasting. What I'm really reacting to here is the vegan trip that it's natural, sustainable, whole foods, and healthy. It really isn't. Now, is it better than McDonalds? Yes.
Lol. Fine! 🤣 I just looked at the easy target first. I want to do one how the criticality of cholesterol for brain health or how low fat is neither heart healthy nor especially brain healthy.
I’m trying to think of a funny “grumpy” reply but am falling short. Maybe I need to pay more attention to my fats. As a dad, I’m mostly eating leftovers my kids won’t eat. Too much Mac n Cheese has ruined me!🤣
Not vegan as in without animal protein. Even Jainism, the go-to uses dairy as part of their religious ceremonies. Only recently, with the advent of processing, labs, and global trade, have they been able to remove the dairy.
I haven't read until the end yet, but you should look into B12 in meat. Because it's not there and has to be artificially added to animal diet, because we used too much of antibiotics and destroyed bacteria that makes it in the ground.
So even if you eat meat your b12 comes from fortification.
It might not be the case when people have livestock on their own small farms, but is definitely true for most of the meat production.
I did a little more research and the natural source for B12 in beef are the bacteria cultivated with a grass dirt. Grass fed beef doesn't need to be supplemented.
I appreciate you sharing this. I read it, and while you raise a few valid points about the realities of modern agriculture, I think you're selectively applying those standards to veganism while giving animal agriculture a pass.
You say veganism is a first-world luxury because of global supply chains, supplements, and modern food production. But meat production relies on every one of those things too, and then adds another layer: growing feed for billions of animals, transporting it, veterinary care, slaughterhouses, processing plants, refrigeration, and distribution. That's hardly a simple or self-sufficient system.
You also create the impression that vegans survive on processed meat substitutes and specialty foods. I don't. My diet is centered around beans, lentils, potatoes, rice, fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds. Those are some of the least expensive and most widely consumed foods on the planet. People have thrived on diets based on these staples for centuries.
What I find most interesting is that you spend a great deal of time talking about logistics but very little time talking about ethics. I didn't become vegan because I suddenly stopped liking the taste of meat. I became vegan because I no longer wanted an animal to suffer and die when I had another choice. Compassion was the deciding factor, not convenience.
No food system is perfect. Every form of agriculture has an impact. The question I ask myself is, "Which choice causes the least unnecessary harm?" For me, that's eating plants directly instead of feeding them to animals first.
So yes, you make some reasonable observations. But when you criticize veganism for depending on modern systems while overlooking that industrial animal agriculture depends on those same systems to an even greater extent, that's cherry-picking rather than making a balanced comparison.
I apprecaite your very reasoned response. If I’m reading right there are three main arguments.
Ethics
Animal Production
Plant-based food variety.
For the first, the more I dug, the more I find the ethics are based on furry faces, not animal death. Yes, factory farming is a big issue, which is one reason why I try to avoid it and raise my own chickens, goats, and even a cow. Further, the mono-crop farming required to support vegan / plant food is crazy. My wife’s uncle farms and they kill hundreds of a deer each year, which go to waste, to protect their soybean fields. Not to mention the destruction of the land biome, insecticide, and the reason carrion birds follow combines just to summarize.
For the second, as I alluded to, I’m not in support of factory animal farming either. The catch here is that I can live almost anywhere in the world on an omnivore diet. The Inuit are a great example of this. BUT vegans, without that advanced supply chain, cannot live outside of very narrow regions. In fact, I’m trying to model this now, but without that big, meat fueled brain, we didn’t come up with the agrigarin capabilities that allow us to eat vegan. Put a different way, without meat, we’d still be sitting next to our great ape cousins, without this prefrontal cortex, eating greens in the jungles of Africa.
For the third, this teases back to the second. The diversity of food that you describe are actually broadly distrubuted and originted, often thousands of miles apart, often across major bodies of water. Simply put, chicken or the egg (omnivore pun intended) it looks like the brain came first, driven by high energy, high fat, high protein meat, that allowed us to domesticate and consolidate those plants so you have the nutrient diversity to eat vegan.
A related point to make is that, if I were to become a subsitence farmer, meaning I wasn’t relying on the supply chain, I’m very hard pressed to find a location where I can do that without supplementing with animal products.
A similar point is that I can’t find a region, prior to agricutlure, where hunter/gatherer societies could be vegan because they didn’t have food storage, crop density, etc.
Back to the article, I’m not going to say don’t be vegan, I’m not advocating for factory farms, and I think we need to do better there. However, it is my contention that we grew this big ol’ brain eating meat and that gives us the ability to even have this conversation.
Great post, but I’m afraid the Veggietatorship has already dispatched its elite Tofu Enforcement Division to take you down with extreme prejudice and minimal seasoning.
B12 is not made by animals either, only by bacteria and some algae’s.
It is made in our guts, but there is disagreement if we can absorb it.
It used to be consumed by the water supply.
The animal food chain is fortified heavily with B-12 because for the last 6 months of their lives in feedlots they get none from their diet or water and lose it.
35-40% of all omnivores are B-12 deficient, so animal protein is no savior.
Fake meats have been tested in HRCT’s directly against grass fed, organic, beef and were shown to lower inflammation, LDL cholesterol, and risk of ASCVD.
So while they are a processed junk food for vegans they still healthier than beef.
Coconut oil should be avoided by everyone, it raises LDL/ApoB nearly as much as butter, so it is absolutely not needed, by any vegan.
I guess I could go point by point, but you get the idea.
When I was a low carb, Paleo adherent, clutching my Gary Taubes and Nina Tiecholz books, my cholesterol was 275, LDL 212, A1C was 5.7, Triglycerides were 186, BP was 120/80.
10years later as a HCLF whole food vegan, for the most part, as I still do the occasional potato chips and oreos, my Total Cholesterol is 95, my LDL/ApoB is 47, triglycerides are 54, fasting insulin 3.8, C-reactive protein is .6, Homa-IR is .74, BP is 110/68, all while consuming copious amounts of sugar, wheat, white rice, potatoes and fruit, and getting about 1.1g/kg of protein a day without supplementation, easily 1.6 if I supplement with EAAs and Protein powders, as do 90% of all who workout regularly.
My numbers are not anomalies, but what the vast majority of people who follow this diet experience without the need for statins, or BP meds.🤷🏻♂️
The feedlot argument is comment but also, an issue with factory farming. Further, B12, from water, isn’t enough. The reason we get it from meat is becasue Cows are also not vegan per set… unless the copious bacteria they farm and digest aren’t animal? That one gets interesting. But cows don’t digest grass, they fermet grass, and digest bacteria, where they get B12.
Humans, conversely, cannot ferment food like that, and our instestianl system is much closer to omnivores in all manner such as stomach PH, intestinal track length, colon volume, even brain size.
But more importantly, back to those three bullet points. There are very few places on earth with the plant diversity that allow humans to survive on plants alone. Not that there are no places, not that there have never been vegans but that, at scale, it can’t happen without those three bullets.
Moreover, the most reputed sources state that B12 fundamentally, for humans, comes from animal sources withou the second two bullets.
Cows do not ferment grass, the bacteria in their rumen ferments the grass, making the cellulose into a usable form of carbohydrate, B-12 etc.
Humans have multiple strains of bacteria that synthesize B-12, but they are mostly in the LI, and we absorb B-12 in the small intestine, though it has been well documented that some vegans go years without supplementation, without deficiency. Also some plants do make B-12, but they are rare and would fall into your hypothesis for first world supply chain to receive.
Simply not true, the vast majority of land on earth can grow more than enough plant diversity for humans, it takes very few plants, since humans can thrive at about 80% of calories from starches, or fruits, which have enough protein(we need half what the influencers and fitness coaches claim) and the necessary fiber, which animals have zero.
Beans, rice/corn/potatoes, greens/cabbage, grain, and most humans are good for 90 years of chronic disease free life.
I don't want to get pedantic but you knew what I meant about cows fermenting.
I'll only add this to close, all of those foods you listed in the last sentence are modern, IE in the last 10K years of human history and have all been highly, and selectively bred for that nutrient density. In fact, many of those greens you mentioned were originally toxic and we have bred that toxicity away. Put another way, the human brain did not evolve because we ate those foods. We can eat those foods because the human brain evolved eating meat, and that big ol' brain can selectively breed plant materials in a manner that allows you to eat them instead of meat.
Actually I didn’t, honestly, I wanted to make sure.
Again, there is no evidence that big ol brain came from meat, we rarely ate meat, as it was extremely hard to come by, and was dangerous.
The evidence and science shows we grew that big ol brain by releasing the massive calorie treasure trove that is cooked starches, beans, lentils, peas, tubers etc. when we started cooking them.
There was no time that humans globally were subsisting on mostly meat, that is Carnivore mythology and pseudoscience.
Again, not true, greens are bitter, as are many healthy, medicinal foods, but they were never toxic to humans, that is another myth that I cannot believe is still hanging around, like essential amino acids, complete proteins and other nutritional nonsense.
Which spawned the hormesis nonsense, and natural insecticides plants use to defend themselves, just utter nonsense propagated by charlatans like Saladino.
So your foundational premise is not backed by science, research, or the fossil record, or studies or modern hunter gatherer populations like the Hadza, it is an opinion sure, but it is simply not supported, or corroborated by anthropology, nutrition, and the biological sciences.
We will just have to agree to disagree on this one my friend.😎✌🏻
It is the low carb movement and its variations, of which I was a founding member in the 90’s and early 2000’s, that acts more like a religion, than any vegans I have ever met.
There have been vegans for millennia, vegan is a modern British term btw, invented by the newly created Vegan Society of England who wanted to differentiate themselves from the Indian vegetarians who consumed copious amounts of dairy.
Pythagoras and Hippocrates advocated abstention from animal foods, and for millennia in Asia and the Mediterranean, the term vegetarian meant no animal foods of any kind.
As for nutrient density.
Plants are much more nutrient dense than animal foods, but they are also very low in calories.
It is animal foods, that are low to moderate in nutrients but high, to very high in calories.
The term nutrient dense, was really coined by Dr. Joel Fuhrman, and has been co-opted by the Paleo/Ancestral, Carnivore/Keto crowds, and originally meant micro nutrients, per calorie, not nutrients per serving, which incorporates macronutrients into the density moniker.
All nutrients, including all the essential amino acids, made only by plants btw, and all plants have all 20, omega-3’s B-vitamins, anti oxidants, the fat soluble vitamins A,D,E,K, minerals, can be obtained in a whole food, plant based diet, along with fiber and thousands of different phytonutrients.
Animal foods contain no phyto nutrients, polyphenols, or fiber, making them woefully deficient in many nutrients.
None of this is even remotely controversial or contested, except by internet influencers and MD’s selling programs and supplements, to those ignorant of human biology and evolution..
So while many vegans are indeed passionate, opinionated kooks, the Rogan bro science crowd is no better, much worse in my decades of experience in the nutrition space.
I appreciate the comment and you make good points. Disagreement is good!
And angle I find interesting is that I know a good number of people on the carnivore diet, who have to supplement much less, if anything at all, compared to the people I know on a vegan diet.
Ancesterally, the Inuit are amost exclusively carnivore whereas the Janes, the most historically pure vegetarians, still consumed Ghee to close out their nutrient gaps.
The more research I do on this topic, the harder I find it to justify Veganism. Even the two folks you mentioned, are from the medeteranian region which has a higher density of plan diversity allowing those nutrients. As humans expanded, they adapted.
Further, we legit don’t have the stomach or instenstinal track to eat RAW plant life like our ape cousins. (too acidic, too short) Our brains evolved because we began eating meat, which, with that big brain, allowed us to start harvesting and culitvating sophisticated plant life. In fact, we’ve even bred out much of the toxicity of plants to allow them to be consumed (cucumbers are a great example)
This isn’t to say vegetarianism isn’t legit or that factory animal farming is OK… (which are two common complaints) The bigger issue I have is that Veganism requires factory farming at scale and, even then, we don’t produce enough to feed the entire population even with our modern technologies.
But back to your intro point, I have yet to have had the first three bullets debunked in whole. For example: you can debunk 1…. if you accept 3 and supplement with 2. However, if you lost 2, and 3, you cannot be vegan. (history has proven this (back to the Janes)
You make one of the best argumens I’ve seen but I can’t find anywhere in history where I find a true vegan, outside of our great ape cousins, within humanity, until the past 100 years outside of, potentially, one or two outliers.
Fundamentally, we evolved into Omnivores long long ago.
If they are actual carnivore diet, they get zero vitamin c, vitamin k, fiber, very little potassium and magnesium, and most, if they are smart, take a multi everyday.
LC diets, Carnivore being the worst, result in a 30-35% increase in all cause mortality, and even higher risk from ischemic heart disease and stroke, they also cause insulin resistance, which is why so many cannot eat 2 bananas without a BG and insulin spike.
Conversely vegans need none, except B-12, just a simple multi is more than enough.
The Inuit die young, riddled with atherosclerosis, as do the Masai, 10-15 years younger than even the fat, junk food diet Americans, and 20-30 years younger than a average healthy vegan.
Again, that is not true, or in any way in line with known nutrition science, human biology, and evolution. I am not sure where your research is coming from, but you might want to broaden your source material.
Our brains didn’t evolve when we began eating meat, it evolved when we started cooking starches, Paleolithic humans, as well as modern hunter gatherers like the Hadza, get the vast majority if their calories from plants, sometimes up to 80% from honey alone when on a hunting expedition.
Yes apes like chimpanzees have larger hind guts(colons), though shorter small intestines, because when fruit is scarce, they rely on leaves, bark, and the occasional smaller monkey of bird if desperate enough. But they get 60-80% of their calories from raw fruit, which is digested in the small intestine, just as we do, and pound for pound they are much stronger than we are.
If you eliminate factory farming for animal products, you really cannot support large populations, which is why our population exploded when we started large scale agriculture. Many times more calories, from less land and effort in plants, than animals.
Agriculture at scale produces more than enough to feed the entire world, much more. It is estimated that the plant calories grown to feed livestock animals in America alone, would feed all of the world’s hungry, with not a single extra acre required.
Animal agriculture is horribly inefficient and costly in terms of land and water, and could not sustain even 1/4 of the world’s population, if that was all we consumed, so again, your hypothesis is completely backward and false.
The janes did not need ghee to supplement their diet, as ghee has zero nutritional value beyond calories from fat. Again, completely false.
Now we get to where you are 100% correct.
Nowhere in history has a population been “completely vegan”, or an animal species for that matter, not even the great apes, ruminants, elephants, rhinos etc. as they consume up to 10% of calories from insects, small animals, bacteria etc.
Same for humans, no way you 100% remove all animal products, or killing from your existence, but no one ever really, claimed you could, that is the straw man the Paleo, LC, Keto/Carnivore/ meat, dairy, egg industry charlatans and influencers have been peddling to rationalize a diet, based on their products, that is the number one cause of obesity, insulin resistance, T2DM, ischemic heart disease, stroke and cancer.
Vegan kooks do not help any either, which created the environment that made the political influence to the right, from Taubes, Tiecholtz, Weston Price, Atkins, Banting even, et al, so harmful for our health.
It results in the flat earth belief saturated fat is healthy and heart protective, necessary for hormone production, the brain, that it doesn’t raise LadL, or worse that LDL doesn’t cause ASCVD, ischemic heart disease, and stroke, and all manner of pseudoscientific nonsense, that is as bad or worse than the Climate nonsense of the Vegan leftist crowd.
The plant based diet contains many times more nutrients, fewer calories, zero cholesterol and little saturated fat, while providing more than enough protein and essential fiber, which is why the more whole plants one eats, especially if those calories replace calories from animal foods, the longer you live, and the healthier that life becomes.
Thousands of studies, over decades, on millions of people, across cultures and continents have proven this to be true, over and over again.
Now can you eat plenty of animals and be healthy, and live a long disease free life?
Absolutely, but it takes some serious planning, another fact in opposition to the current narrative, in making sure you eat enough plants, for vitamins, minerals, fiber etc, to mitigate the damage done from the high calorie, high concentration of single nutrients found in animal foods.
A ribeye, three cups of broccoli, and 8oz of potatoes is far better than a vegan meal of potato chips and Oreos, or drenching greens in oil, or consuming copious amounts of coconut products, and/or vegan animal substitute products.
Those are the First World additions to a vegan diet that no one needs, and in fact should minimize or avoid, as is the recommendation of virtually every vegan doctor, scientist, and/or researcher, and food guideline recommendation.
Almost all animals are technically Omnivores, humans are no different, we can live decades on junk food, cigarettes, cocaine and whiskey.
It doesn’t make them healthy, delicious, and fun, absolutely, but not healthy.😉
Oh man! I listened to this one while I was walking just now, and I swear I heard "pee protein."
I'll have to write about the time I took a road trip from Richmond to New Orleans with two vegans and one vegetarian. 1999's vegetarian road trip options were NOT great. I got to see this first hand.
If I have any "hot takes" for today, it's on this: "My main complaint about veganism is that it is not how we evolved." I kind of don't really care how we evolved since we're still evolving and can make what we will of the world as it arises, but I'm actually being pedantic because I'm pretty sure we agree on this too.
How we evolved is important to understand how to feed ourselves. I'm not opposed to veganism per se as long as we recognize we grew the brains we did because of meat and that we use those brains to figure out how to replace it without the silly "Gorillas don't eat meat" argument.
Gorillas don't eat meat, but they also don't build cities and land people in the moon. 🤣
All connected to the fact that we huemans immorally extort each other for permission to share a planet NONE of us actually own through capitalism specifically real estate. . . which all food is grown from 🤟🏿🖖🏾
“My main complaint about veganism is that it is not how we evolved.”
That’s actually false, we did evolve as herbivores. You can look at our biology (teeth, intentional length, saliva pH, etc.) to confirm that. And our evolutionary lineage.
We started eating meat when we learned how to cook with fire. And that’s also when our brains grew. But we can’t attribute that just to meat. Yes extra protein helped, but we also unlocked the bioavailability of many important nutrients in plants, and allowed caloric intake of plants to increase (like how you can condense a box of spinach into a handful when you cook it).
To say veganism is not possible or healthy is just false. You can be healthy and eat meat, and you can be healthy and not eat meat.
15 years a vegan - and a professional athlete. I appreciate reading your perspectives - however I wouldn’t say using personal examples of who you know and your objective view of healthy as scientific example. It’s like me saying I know a guy who ate red meat every day and then he got cancer - I cannot say for sure it’s a causal relationship but it’s an attention grabbing statement. As others have mentioned there are many cultures who thrive off a mostly vegan diet, and the supplement industry doesn’t rely only on vegans to stay afloat, that’s for sure. In fact the luxury of the first world is that we have access to factory farmed meat at every single meal every single day. We have access to milk of other animals in almost every meal. So if what is “natural” is an argument then the standard American diet is far from natural. I accept that I live in a country where I have choice and access to whatever food I want. So if I have that privilege why not then CHOOSE foods that do not equate animal cruelty, suffering, unsustainable farming practices and health consequences. If ominvores also eat the same processed shit I do, is it at least not worth striving for less harm? You will find most ethical vegans also embrace other sustainable practices, “dieting” vegans will probably not remain vegan, and move onto the next fad diet. I’d rather take a processed b12 pill than know that I need to rely on someone else slaughtering a frightened animal, which is ironically also filled with artificial processed feed, and medicines. . It comes down to what is humane and sustainable. Feed the soy to the humans. Use lab grown shit for nutrients for all I care, evolve away from cruelty and excess. If we lived In a society where we all owned one cow and we could sustainably share that cow amongst our close family (some cultures do live like this) then perhaps my diet choice would look different. But we don’t live like that, especially in the West, so let’s adapt, ethically.
Good points. If I were to send a colony to Mars, the diet would look a lot more vegan than carnivore. The bigger question is whether we fully understand the physiological consequences. I'm not criticizing the vegan diet writ large trying to contextualize it.
There are a lot of questions about the sustainability and harmlessness of vegan. After my uncle harvests his soy and corn fields, carrion birds flock in for a reason.
If you're OK with the supplementations and synthetic processing that's fine. I too am bothered by how bad our entire food supply is from meat to veggies. My observations of veganism shouldn't be construed to a promotion of our food supply.
We have to be skeptical of observational studies because of confounding variables, but some of the most interesting and high-quality studies in this space come from decades of Adventist health studies, which neutralize many of those variables by looking at members of a shared faith culture that receive the same health-focused message from their faith and church leaders.
The average Adventist lives years longer than the average Californian.
And among the Adventists:
The adjusted hazard ratio (HR) for all-cause mortality in all vegetarians combined vs nonvegetarians was 0.88 (95% CI, 0.80-0.97).
The adjusted HR for all-cause mortality in vegans was 0.85 (95% CI, 0.73-1.01);
in lacto-ovo–vegetarians, 0.91 (95% CI, 0.82-1.00);
in pesco-vegetarians, 0.81 (95% CI, 0.69-0.94); and in semi-vegetarians, 0.92 (95% CI, 0.75-1.13)
I think all this is tentative. And some confounding variables are hard to correct for. But there's very reason to think that directionally, this sort of whole foods-focused vegetarian, pesco-vegetarian, or vegan diet is just fine, if not completely optimal.
Compared to most fad diets, it's a massive step up. I'd argue that anyone claiming definitively what exactly must be consumed, in what ratio, is going more more on dogma than precise science.
I'm not a vegan because I don't hold the ideology, and you know from my writing how I feel about self-labeling making us stupid.
But I have severe autoimmune issues and allergies and avoid meat and dairy because it keeps my colitis in remission while avoiding several other problems. And even though I can eat eggs and honey, I rarely do this, and perhaps consume them twice a year on average. I take a B12 pill. I get most of my protein from whole legumes, but have no problem taking a scoop of pea protein powder on days where it's required to reach my .80 to .90 g / pound protein target. Outside of this, I eat very little of the processed foods you spend a lot time talking about in this article as if its an inextricable element of a plant-based diet. If I go visit family I'll probably be served a beyond burger and will eat it, but it's not really a thing for me. Most of that stuff didn't even exist when i started twenty years ago. I do like eating some tofu perhaps once a week, but the health benefits are well established and rather lindy after centuries of tofu eating in China and Japan.
Despite this, my health is excellent after 20 years on variations of this regime, and I perform very well athletically in all my pursuits.
I'm all for calling out the problems of processed food, but I'm not sure there's a strong body of evidence pointing out the downsides of a well-planned vegan diet. Compared to the dietary idiocy of the American public, whatever marginal benefit that might accrue from adding small amounts of animal products seems so statistically small that I'm not sure it's worth getting worked up about.
I agree that most vegans don't eat well. But then most omnivorous Americans make even poorer food choices, statistically speaking.
There's a whole series of good Adventist studies, but here's one to start with:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/1710093?utm_source=chatgpt.com
I'd only be careful in conflating vegan with vegetarian. Adventists are vegetarian. I'm not criticizing vegetarian diets at all. I do find that 95% of arguments for veganism rely on studies of vegetarianism.
If you read those studies you'll find that many Adventists are vegans, though more are vegetarians of various stripes. There's a combined vegetarian category that combines the vegans and vegetarians, but they also break out the smaller vegan group.
Valid. Again, not saying it's a terrible diet. Just that it requires some pretty advanced technologies to achieve it. Who knows what a Martian diet may look like. It might be healthier but it certainly requires a deep understanding of human biology and gastroenterology.
Good points. I can appreciate you kept it to those 3 points. I think that critique is fair. What is healthy for 1 individual can be very unhealthy for another. (Which is why I hate the way some are religious about “their” diet). I was vegan for 1.5 years before throwing in the towel. I learned a lot though.
1: Not everyone has the biology for it. Everyone needs to find what works for them (don’t convince an eskimo who lives on whale blubber to be vegan). We’ve all evolved differently with what we can digest.
2: The honeymoon period is typically 3-6 months where you eat more plant fiber and feel lighter. This often leads to feeling great at first.
3: Lethargy is real. I got to where I could not sustain high intensity exercise or longer activities. For me, I certainly felt anemic no matter what I tried.
4: Despite carefully supplementing and thinking I was getting enough nutrients, those cell walls plants have make it harder to absorb and are less bioavailable. So you may not be getting as much protein absorption as one thinks. No matter how much plant protein I ate, I could not stop my muscle atrophy despite working out.
5: We became vegan because of going down the rabbit hole of YouTube videos and documentaries on factory farming. But I was horrified to learn how many lives are killed to eat 1 avocado. Let alone all the other needed mono crops to sustain the diet. When you plow fields, you murder everything.
6: After I went on a mountain bike ride one morning after 1.5 years in, and couldn’t get off the couch all day, I quit. I ate 1 burger, and it was like a shot of cocaine.
7: If all lives matter, then 1 ethically raised free ranging cow will feed my family for about 3 months. Compared to the 10’s of thousands of small rodents, birds and insects that had to die for my veggies.
8: I found after 3 months in I was relying on highly processed supplements to attempt to maintain my nutrition levels. (1 of your points). It was very difficult to stay satiated so I eventually found myself snacking on a lot of packaged foods.
9: People will say “their” diet works and give studies based on a typical American diet. But if all you did was eat grass you’d still probably be healthier than typical Americans.
10: Vegans will say I did the diet wrong. 😂
I guess the real goal is to find foods that work for you that are hopefully healthy, sustainable, and ethically sourced. And then give everyone grace given people’s differing circumstances.
The bioavailability element is tough because plants are hard to get nutrients from and often have some pretty crazy toxins. I was always suprised when I realized how much our brains likely grew because of adding meat to our diet due to the incredible nutrient density.
Factory animal farming is atrocious. However monocrop farming is equally bad. It just depends on where you draw the line for what dies. Personally watching how till monocrop farming destroys the entire biome of the soil transitioning it from a complex organism to dead matter was crazy.
I experimented with the Whole Food Plant Based (aka vegan but less sanctimonious about it) way of eating for about two years. This type of veganism eschews the Impossible Burgers, Oreos, and other vegan junk foods in favor of a LOT of beans, lentils, and other legumes, fruits and vegetables. You're really supposed to not use oils at all, on the theory that oils are "processed" foods. So fats are obtained from things like avocados, nuts, seeds, etc.. I rebelled against the no-oil rule; as it is just really hard to make foods taste good without use of some sort of oils for cooking. I
I was constantly bloated, gassy and nauseous; I was told that these symptoms would abate as my digestive system adapted to the high volume of fiber. It never adapted.
I was also ravenously hungry, despite my stomach being upset most of the time. I suspect it had to do with the fact that as a shortish middle-aged lady, I had to be conscious of my caloric intake - and since beans and legumes are not particularly protein-dense, it's hard to hit your protein macros without going significantly over on calories. I mountain bike and lift weights, so my protein requirements are higher than a sedentary individual. "You don't really need that much protein! It's all a lie!" was the message from WFPB advocates; but I noticed my muscle mass and strength declining.
After two years, my stomach was still constantly upset, I was still bloated and uncomfortable yet oddly hungry, and now I was diagnosed with IBS. In desperation, I did a complete 180 and tried the carnivore diet for a couple weeks. Within three days the bloat was gone, I was "regular" again, and I felt significantly better both mentally and physically.
Since then, I have stayed on a balanced diet which includes animal products as well as a ton of vegetables and fruits; the only things I limit are sugar and processed food.
To my knowledge, there is not a single traditional culture that was fully vegan (there are certainly groups that have traditionally been mostly or fully vegetarian, but who still ate cheese and eggs).
I do know people who have done well on vegan diets, but I am clearly not one of those people.
Great insights. I've also known people who have had success with Vegan but they still shifted off after a short time. I haven't found a healthy vegan who has been on the diet for over 20 years. I do think you hit on something that some people can process food differently. For example, I'm Dutch and can process raw milk much better than 75% of the human population. That doesn't mean everyone should drink milk as they're lacto intollerant and that doesn't mean I shouldn't drink milk because no-one else can process it.
Same
I strongly agree with your first point. After a long journey to treat severe digestive symptoms, the carnivore diet is what best ended up working for my physiology. After the past two years of being on the diet, I have also recently experienced a dramatic improvement in my mental health - more than I ever thought was possible. I know many other people who have benefited from carnivore or ketogenic diets in similar ways. There will always be a sizeable portion of people who cannot tolerate enough plant foods to sustain a vegan diet and even people like me who can't eat any. Since veganism cannot be universally applied, any attempts to enforce it through public policy are inherently authoritarian. People should be allowed to freely choose what works best for them.
I've heard so many stories like this and I'm thrilled you found what works. I also fully support that concluding sentence. Absolutly true.
I am not here to criticize anyone’s food choices or diet since I firmly believe that all diets have the potential for deficiencies if they are not balanced with other foods or fortified with the lacking vitamins and minerals. Every diet can be nutritionally adequate, but it requires planning to ensure the body receives all the essential nutrients.
I asked ChatGPT to list possible deficiencies across several diets, and here is what I got:
1. Vegetarian Diet Deficiencies
- Vitamin B12: Exclusion of meat and fish, which are primary sources of B12.
- Iron: Lack of heme iron from meat; plant-based iron (non-heme) is less bioavailable.
- Zinc: Lower absorption from plant sources due to phytates in legumes and grains.
- Omega-3 Fatty Acids: Absence of EPA and DHA, found in fish.
- Protein: May occur if there is insufficient variety in plant-based sources (e.g., legumes, nuts, seeds, and grains).
2. Vegan Diet Deficiencies
- Vitamin B12: Complete exclusion of animal products leaves no natural source of B12.
- Iron: Non-heme iron is less efficiently absorbed than heme iron.
- Calcium: Lack of dairy products, a significant calcium source in many diets.
- Vitamin D: Vegan diets usually exclude fortified dairy or fish; sunlight may not always suffice.
- Omega-3 Fatty Acids: No direct sources of EPA/DHA; ALA from seeds like flax and chia is inefficiently converted.
- Zinc: Phytates in plant-based foods inhibit zinc absorption.
- Iodine: No fish or dairy, and iodized salt is often overlooked.
3. Semi-Vegetarian (Flexitarian) Diet Deficiencies
- Iron: Infrequent consumption of meat may lead to insufficient iron intake.
- Vitamin B12: Irregular intake of animal products can lead to low B12 levels.
- Omega-3 Fatty Acids: Limited fish consumption may result in insufficient EPA/DHA intake.
- Calcium and Vitamin D: Limited dairy intake can reduce calcium and vitamin D levels.
4. Non-vegetarian diet Deficiencies
Fiber: Low whole grains, fruits, and vegetables can lead to insufficient dietary fiber.
- Vitamin C: Lack of fruits and vegetables may reduce intake of this essential vitamin.
- Folate: Limited leafy greens and legumes consumption can cause folate deficiencies.
- Magnesium: Low nuts, seeds, and whole grains intake can result in magnesium deficiency.
- Omega-3 Fatty Acids: Many non-vegetarians don’t consume enough fatty fish, leading to low EPA/DHA levels.
As seen above, any diet can result in multiple deficiencies if not planned correctly. Additionally, many diets rely on a global food supply in today's interconnected world. This reality makes it even more important for first- and non-first-world individuals to ensure that their nutrient needs are met, whether through locally available foods, imports, or fortified products.
Now, let me introduce you to a religion in India that has existed for around 2,500 years and its unique dietary practices. The religion is Jainism (https://tinyurl.com/muurkzbh)), and its diet is one of the most rigorous forms of spiritually motivated vegetarianism. Jainism advocates for a lacto-vegetarian diet, which excludes meat, fish, eggs, and even root and underground vegetables such as potatoes, garlic, onions, carrots, and mushrooms. The exclusion of root vegetables is based on the desire to avoid injuring small insects and microorganisms in the soil and prevent harm to the entire plant by uprooting it.
A lacto-vegetarian diet, as practiced by Jains, includes dairy products such as milk, yogurt, butter, cheese (made without animal rennet), cream, kefir, and honey. However, in recent decades, some followers of Jainism have transitioned away from consuming dairy products entirely due to concerns about the violence involved in modern industrial dairy farming practices. These individuals follow a diet beyond veganism, reflecting their deep commitment to the principle of Ahinsa(non-violence). So, it’s important to note that this shift is not limited to first-world countries but has also occurred in non-first-world regions.
Having observed many lacto-vegetarians and vegetarians, I’ve noticed that while deficiencies such as Vitamin D are relatively common, most individuals who consume a balanced lacto-vegetarian diet live long and healthy lives. The key to any diet's success lies in how well it is balanced and how deficiencies are addressed.
I do not believe that any one diet is inherently superior to another. Instead, it is about recognizing the limitations of your chosen diet and taking conscious steps to supplement or balance what is missing. Whether through fortified foods, supplements, or careful planning, balancing your diet makes the difference.
Beautiful and informative post !!!
Thanks very much 👍👍👍 🔥🔥🔥 (NON-violent flame 🤣)
Thanks!
Awesome insight and additions to the conversation. I think vegan can be a useful diet but requires a deeper understanding of what the foundation is.
Sometimes, I feel you are trying to test the limit of Cunningham's Law with some of your posts: "The best way to get the right answer on the Internet is not to ask a question; it's to post the wrong answer."
The following graphic represents what happens after that:
https://images.app.goo.gl/LNLZRVj46wxf9mjC7
😄
Sometimes it is the best way. 😄
Jainism is the go-to answer but for long term vegan cultures but, as you've pointed out, Jainism relied on animal protein in the form of Milk which is totally legit. Now that they have international trade and the ability for laboratory and processed proteins, they can eliminate milk from their diet but until that, they relied on Milk.
My goal wasn't to 'debunk' veganism but to contextualize what's required for veganism. If a person is cool with those conditions, more power to them. In fact, if I were to populate Mars, likely the diet would look a lot more vegan because I don't think we could haul animals there very well at least for the near term.
However, it's important to note that it's not a diet that we evolved eating, nor is it one we can do without modern technologies and international trade.
I have seen a pattern since the start of this year, so I thought I would ask. I have worked with a few other people who do this, so I am comfortable with people dropping bombs and seeing how everyone around them reacts. I do use it sometimes, too, when it is the only way to make people see the light.
I mean, this one and the one about Gen X were a bit like that. I've done similar in the past. One coming up in two weeks is on Algowhoring so batton down the hatches! 😄 But sacred cows to make the best burgers don't they?
That said, My three postulates for this essay are carrying through the critique quite well. It's not an issue per se but what I find facinating is how riled up it's gotten people when they even think there is a critique.
One person has come out and said something along the lines of "True, and I'm OK with that." To which I'm totally cool with that. It's kind of like religion. I've poked at how people interpret the bible literally. I don't care what they believe as long as people realize what they believe and why.
That a decent number got testy about this essay tells me they haven't really considered the full implications of Veganism. Just like poking at Christianity doens't mean the othe religions don't have their own problems, so too poking at veganism isn't meant to say the other diets are amazing.
I believe that we should look at everything important to us from our lenses. Here is the quote that I came across recently along with the Royal Society motto “Do not take anyone's word for it”:
“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.” - Buddha
I do like your analyses in general and I appreciate your work (part of my selected RSS feed), so I hope to change your mind regarding some of the facts you present here.
> Veganism is pretty simple. You eat nothing that has animal protein of any nature.
I would add **as is possible and practicable**. On a desert island with a pig I would eat the pig, if globalism and free trade would halt or civilization collapsed and in result it's not practical to eat Vegan diet no one should expect Vegans to not eat animal products. I would even say that you can consume animal products and be Vegan in that case (if it's not possible nor practicable otherwise), although this is probably more controversial take.
I would not say it's a first-world luxury, but it's much easier to strive on Vegan diet now than ever. It is probably more of a first-world luxury to eat meat every day than being Vegan. Why the Veganism as we know is more prevalent in West is that our philosophies around freedoms are easily transferable to non-human animals and we have a good philosophical foundations (both religious and secular) for it.
In countries where the philosophical foundations were also established people ate Vegan/Vegetarian diets even before globalization and technological progress (Buddhism in india, china, taiwan, vietnam ...).
#1: Whole Foods
Almost everyone is eating some amount of non-whole foods, so I am not sure why is it important if we are able to eat whole food only Vegan diet. I think the more interesting question is if it's possible to eat almost whole food diet and the answer is yes and pretty easily.
* Tofu, Tempeh for protein (how are these not mentioned?)
* B12 pill
* Exercise
Nobody needs to add highly concentrated pea protein nor coconut oil to their diet to stay healthy. If you have links saying otherwise please send them to me I stand corrected.
#2: Globalized food chain
You are correct that origins of different plants needed for healthy Vegan diet were brought from all over the word, but that does not mean it is still like that. US is the second biggest producer of soy beans for example.
#3: Ultra-processing
If you want you can completely skip ultra-processed foods in your diet. I do tend to eat some for both taste and convenience.
For anecdotal evidence there are non first-world countries which had practitioners of Veganism (Pure vegetarianism) for 100s of years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism
I'm mostly poking at the vegan is natural crowd. I will poke at the issues with our normal diet as well. There are huge issues like sugar which we looked at not long ago.
As far as I can find, you really couldn't have been pure vegan 50 years ago let alone 100 years ago.
Also not suggesting the typical diet is good by any means. I'm planning to write more on that in the future but I've already poked pretty hard at sugar.
While I appreciate the time and energy that went into this, I suggest you now take a similar approach to every diet and see where that leads you. 🤣 I’m not trying to be an asshole and am not a vegan, but nearly every diet today has uncomfortable truths. Nearly every diet requires a massive amount of outsourcing and processing. That’s not inherently good or bad, it just is.
I also think it’s important to note that I know a great many vegans who’ve been fairly healthy for 30+ years. Are they ridiculous? Sure, but so are people who can’t shut up about bacon or people who endlessly experiment with craft brewing. In fact, everyone I know who’s been avidly at anything for decades rarely talks endlessly about it unless specifically asked. And then… brace yourself for the flood of gabbing lol. This is true across diet, exercise, music, art, politics, history, etc. are their exceptions? Sure. But not as many as the general population assumes. The religious comparison is apt in many ways, but it can be made towards anything that anyone cares deeply about IMO.
Good point. I'm planning to poke at more. We already looked at sugar writ large and we've looked at fasting. What I'm really reacting to here is the vegan trip that it's natural, sustainable, whole foods, and healthy. It really isn't. Now, is it better than McDonalds? Yes.
Lol. Fine! 🤣 I just looked at the easy target first. I want to do one how the criticality of cholesterol for brain health or how low fat is neither heart healthy nor especially brain healthy.
I’m trying to think of a funny “grumpy” reply but am falling short. Maybe I need to pay more attention to my fats. As a dad, I’m mostly eating leftovers my kids won’t eat. Too much Mac n Cheese has ruined me!🤣
I hear you there. I just top it with a bit-o-steak to complete the package.
"Nearly every diet requires a massive amount of outsourcing and processing." Not paleo.
True but now do the other aspects discussed. 🤣
Every diet can be criticized. That doesn’t mean they’re bad, but I’d argue that nearly every modern diet is riddled with uncomfortable truths.
Veganism is "A first-world luxury?
No way. Its been common in India for example for many centuries.
Not vegan as in without animal protein. Even Jainism, the go-to uses dairy as part of their religious ceremonies. Only recently, with the advent of processing, labs, and global trade, have they been able to remove the dairy.
I haven't read until the end yet, but you should look into B12 in meat. Because it's not there and has to be artificially added to animal diet, because we used too much of antibiotics and destroyed bacteria that makes it in the ground.
So even if you eat meat your b12 comes from fortification.
It might not be the case when people have livestock on their own small farms, but is definitely true for most of the meat production.
I did a little more research and the natural source for B12 in beef are the bacteria cultivated with a grass dirt. Grass fed beef doesn't need to be supplemented.
I appreciate you sharing this. I read it, and while you raise a few valid points about the realities of modern agriculture, I think you're selectively applying those standards to veganism while giving animal agriculture a pass.
You say veganism is a first-world luxury because of global supply chains, supplements, and modern food production. But meat production relies on every one of those things too, and then adds another layer: growing feed for billions of animals, transporting it, veterinary care, slaughterhouses, processing plants, refrigeration, and distribution. That's hardly a simple or self-sufficient system.
You also create the impression that vegans survive on processed meat substitutes and specialty foods. I don't. My diet is centered around beans, lentils, potatoes, rice, fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds. Those are some of the least expensive and most widely consumed foods on the planet. People have thrived on diets based on these staples for centuries.
What I find most interesting is that you spend a great deal of time talking about logistics but very little time talking about ethics. I didn't become vegan because I suddenly stopped liking the taste of meat. I became vegan because I no longer wanted an animal to suffer and die when I had another choice. Compassion was the deciding factor, not convenience.
No food system is perfect. Every form of agriculture has an impact. The question I ask myself is, "Which choice causes the least unnecessary harm?" For me, that's eating plants directly instead of feeding them to animals first.
So yes, you make some reasonable observations. But when you criticize veganism for depending on modern systems while overlooking that industrial animal agriculture depends on those same systems to an even greater extent, that's cherry-picking rather than making a balanced comparison.
I apprecaite your very reasoned response. If I’m reading right there are three main arguments.
Ethics
Animal Production
Plant-based food variety.
For the first, the more I dug, the more I find the ethics are based on furry faces, not animal death. Yes, factory farming is a big issue, which is one reason why I try to avoid it and raise my own chickens, goats, and even a cow. Further, the mono-crop farming required to support vegan / plant food is crazy. My wife’s uncle farms and they kill hundreds of a deer each year, which go to waste, to protect their soybean fields. Not to mention the destruction of the land biome, insecticide, and the reason carrion birds follow combines just to summarize.
For the second, as I alluded to, I’m not in support of factory animal farming either. The catch here is that I can live almost anywhere in the world on an omnivore diet. The Inuit are a great example of this. BUT vegans, without that advanced supply chain, cannot live outside of very narrow regions. In fact, I’m trying to model this now, but without that big, meat fueled brain, we didn’t come up with the agrigarin capabilities that allow us to eat vegan. Put a different way, without meat, we’d still be sitting next to our great ape cousins, without this prefrontal cortex, eating greens in the jungles of Africa.
For the third, this teases back to the second. The diversity of food that you describe are actually broadly distrubuted and originted, often thousands of miles apart, often across major bodies of water. Simply put, chicken or the egg (omnivore pun intended) it looks like the brain came first, driven by high energy, high fat, high protein meat, that allowed us to domesticate and consolidate those plants so you have the nutrient diversity to eat vegan.
A related point to make is that, if I were to become a subsitence farmer, meaning I wasn’t relying on the supply chain, I’m very hard pressed to find a location where I can do that without supplementing with animal products.
A similar point is that I can’t find a region, prior to agricutlure, where hunter/gatherer societies could be vegan because they didn’t have food storage, crop density, etc.
Back to the article, I’m not going to say don’t be vegan, I’m not advocating for factory farms, and I think we need to do better there. However, it is my contention that we grew this big ol’ brain eating meat and that gives us the ability to even have this conversation.
Again, I appreciate your comment and your points!
Great post, but I’m afraid the Veggietatorship has already dispatched its elite Tofu Enforcement Division to take you down with extreme prejudice and minimal seasoning.
B12 is not made by animals either, only by bacteria and some algae’s.
It is made in our guts, but there is disagreement if we can absorb it.
It used to be consumed by the water supply.
The animal food chain is fortified heavily with B-12 because for the last 6 months of their lives in feedlots they get none from their diet or water and lose it.
35-40% of all omnivores are B-12 deficient, so animal protein is no savior.
Fake meats have been tested in HRCT’s directly against grass fed, organic, beef and were shown to lower inflammation, LDL cholesterol, and risk of ASCVD.
So while they are a processed junk food for vegans they still healthier than beef.
Coconut oil should be avoided by everyone, it raises LDL/ApoB nearly as much as butter, so it is absolutely not needed, by any vegan.
I guess I could go point by point, but you get the idea.
When I was a low carb, Paleo adherent, clutching my Gary Taubes and Nina Tiecholz books, my cholesterol was 275, LDL 212, A1C was 5.7, Triglycerides were 186, BP was 120/80.
10years later as a HCLF whole food vegan, for the most part, as I still do the occasional potato chips and oreos, my Total Cholesterol is 95, my LDL/ApoB is 47, triglycerides are 54, fasting insulin 3.8, C-reactive protein is .6, Homa-IR is .74, BP is 110/68, all while consuming copious amounts of sugar, wheat, white rice, potatoes and fruit, and getting about 1.1g/kg of protein a day without supplementation, easily 1.6 if I supplement with EAAs and Protein powders, as do 90% of all who workout regularly.
My numbers are not anomalies, but what the vast majority of people who follow this diet experience without the need for statins, or BP meds.🤷🏻♂️
The feedlot argument is comment but also, an issue with factory farming. Further, B12, from water, isn’t enough. The reason we get it from meat is becasue Cows are also not vegan per set… unless the copious bacteria they farm and digest aren’t animal? That one gets interesting. But cows don’t digest grass, they fermet grass, and digest bacteria, where they get B12.
Humans, conversely, cannot ferment food like that, and our instestianl system is much closer to omnivores in all manner such as stomach PH, intestinal track length, colon volume, even brain size.
But more importantly, back to those three bullet points. There are very few places on earth with the plant diversity that allow humans to survive on plants alone. Not that there are no places, not that there have never been vegans but that, at scale, it can’t happen without those three bullets.
Moreover, the most reputed sources state that B12 fundamentally, for humans, comes from animal sources withou the second two bullets.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/healthy-aging-and-longevity/the-a-list-for-vitamin-b-12-sources
Of course B-12 from water was enough.
Cows do not ferment grass, the bacteria in their rumen ferments the grass, making the cellulose into a usable form of carbohydrate, B-12 etc.
Humans have multiple strains of bacteria that synthesize B-12, but they are mostly in the LI, and we absorb B-12 in the small intestine, though it has been well documented that some vegans go years without supplementation, without deficiency. Also some plants do make B-12, but they are rare and would fall into your hypothesis for first world supply chain to receive.
Simply not true, the vast majority of land on earth can grow more than enough plant diversity for humans, it takes very few plants, since humans can thrive at about 80% of calories from starches, or fruits, which have enough protein(we need half what the influencers and fitness coaches claim) and the necessary fiber, which animals have zero.
Beans, rice/corn/potatoes, greens/cabbage, grain, and most humans are good for 90 years of chronic disease free life.
I don't want to get pedantic but you knew what I meant about cows fermenting.
I'll only add this to close, all of those foods you listed in the last sentence are modern, IE in the last 10K years of human history and have all been highly, and selectively bred for that nutrient density. In fact, many of those greens you mentioned were originally toxic and we have bred that toxicity away. Put another way, the human brain did not evolve because we ate those foods. We can eat those foods because the human brain evolved eating meat, and that big ol' brain can selectively breed plant materials in a manner that allows you to eat them instead of meat.
Actually I didn’t, honestly, I wanted to make sure.
Again, there is no evidence that big ol brain came from meat, we rarely ate meat, as it was extremely hard to come by, and was dangerous.
The evidence and science shows we grew that big ol brain by releasing the massive calorie treasure trove that is cooked starches, beans, lentils, peas, tubers etc. when we started cooking them.
There was no time that humans globally were subsisting on mostly meat, that is Carnivore mythology and pseudoscience.
Again, not true, greens are bitter, as are many healthy, medicinal foods, but they were never toxic to humans, that is another myth that I cannot believe is still hanging around, like essential amino acids, complete proteins and other nutritional nonsense.
Which spawned the hormesis nonsense, and natural insecticides plants use to defend themselves, just utter nonsense propagated by charlatans like Saladino.
So your foundational premise is not backed by science, research, or the fossil record, or studies or modern hunter gatherer populations like the Hadza, it is an opinion sure, but it is simply not supported, or corroborated by anthropology, nutrition, and the biological sciences.
We will just have to agree to disagree on this one my friend.😎✌🏻
I love your stuff Michael but wow!
First three bullet points are completely false.
It is the low carb movement and its variations, of which I was a founding member in the 90’s and early 2000’s, that acts more like a religion, than any vegans I have ever met.
There have been vegans for millennia, vegan is a modern British term btw, invented by the newly created Vegan Society of England who wanted to differentiate themselves from the Indian vegetarians who consumed copious amounts of dairy.
Pythagoras and Hippocrates advocated abstention from animal foods, and for millennia in Asia and the Mediterranean, the term vegetarian meant no animal foods of any kind.
As for nutrient density.
Plants are much more nutrient dense than animal foods, but they are also very low in calories.
It is animal foods, that are low to moderate in nutrients but high, to very high in calories.
The term nutrient dense, was really coined by Dr. Joel Fuhrman, and has been co-opted by the Paleo/Ancestral, Carnivore/Keto crowds, and originally meant micro nutrients, per calorie, not nutrients per serving, which incorporates macronutrients into the density moniker.
All nutrients, including all the essential amino acids, made only by plants btw, and all plants have all 20, omega-3’s B-vitamins, anti oxidants, the fat soluble vitamins A,D,E,K, minerals, can be obtained in a whole food, plant based diet, along with fiber and thousands of different phytonutrients.
Animal foods contain no phyto nutrients, polyphenols, or fiber, making them woefully deficient in many nutrients.
None of this is even remotely controversial or contested, except by internet influencers and MD’s selling programs and supplements, to those ignorant of human biology and evolution..
So while many vegans are indeed passionate, opinionated kooks, the Rogan bro science crowd is no better, much worse in my decades of experience in the nutrition space.
Just sayin.😉✌🏻
I appreciate the comment and you make good points. Disagreement is good!
And angle I find interesting is that I know a good number of people on the carnivore diet, who have to supplement much less, if anything at all, compared to the people I know on a vegan diet.
Ancesterally, the Inuit are amost exclusively carnivore whereas the Janes, the most historically pure vegetarians, still consumed Ghee to close out their nutrient gaps.
The more research I do on this topic, the harder I find it to justify Veganism. Even the two folks you mentioned, are from the medeteranian region which has a higher density of plan diversity allowing those nutrients. As humans expanded, they adapted.
Further, we legit don’t have the stomach or instenstinal track to eat RAW plant life like our ape cousins. (too acidic, too short) Our brains evolved because we began eating meat, which, with that big brain, allowed us to start harvesting and culitvating sophisticated plant life. In fact, we’ve even bred out much of the toxicity of plants to allow them to be consumed (cucumbers are a great example)
This isn’t to say vegetarianism isn’t legit or that factory animal farming is OK… (which are two common complaints) The bigger issue I have is that Veganism requires factory farming at scale and, even then, we don’t produce enough to feed the entire population even with our modern technologies.
But back to your intro point, I have yet to have had the first three bullets debunked in whole. For example: you can debunk 1…. if you accept 3 and supplement with 2. However, if you lost 2, and 3, you cannot be vegan. (history has proven this (back to the Janes)
You make one of the best argumens I’ve seen but I can’t find anywhere in history where I find a true vegan, outside of our great ape cousins, within humanity, until the past 100 years outside of, potentially, one or two outliers.
Fundamentally, we evolved into Omnivores long long ago.
If they are actual carnivore diet, they get zero vitamin c, vitamin k, fiber, very little potassium and magnesium, and most, if they are smart, take a multi everyday.
LC diets, Carnivore being the worst, result in a 30-35% increase in all cause mortality, and even higher risk from ischemic heart disease and stroke, they also cause insulin resistance, which is why so many cannot eat 2 bananas without a BG and insulin spike.
Conversely vegans need none, except B-12, just a simple multi is more than enough.
The Inuit die young, riddled with atherosclerosis, as do the Masai, 10-15 years younger than even the fat, junk food diet Americans, and 20-30 years younger than a average healthy vegan.
Again, that is not true, or in any way in line with known nutrition science, human biology, and evolution. I am not sure where your research is coming from, but you might want to broaden your source material.
Our brains didn’t evolve when we began eating meat, it evolved when we started cooking starches, Paleolithic humans, as well as modern hunter gatherers like the Hadza, get the vast majority if their calories from plants, sometimes up to 80% from honey alone when on a hunting expedition.
Yes apes like chimpanzees have larger hind guts(colons), though shorter small intestines, because when fruit is scarce, they rely on leaves, bark, and the occasional smaller monkey of bird if desperate enough. But they get 60-80% of their calories from raw fruit, which is digested in the small intestine, just as we do, and pound for pound they are much stronger than we are.
If you eliminate factory farming for animal products, you really cannot support large populations, which is why our population exploded when we started large scale agriculture. Many times more calories, from less land and effort in plants, than animals.
Agriculture at scale produces more than enough to feed the entire world, much more. It is estimated that the plant calories grown to feed livestock animals in America alone, would feed all of the world’s hungry, with not a single extra acre required.
Animal agriculture is horribly inefficient and costly in terms of land and water, and could not sustain even 1/4 of the world’s population, if that was all we consumed, so again, your hypothesis is completely backward and false.
The janes did not need ghee to supplement their diet, as ghee has zero nutritional value beyond calories from fat. Again, completely false.
Now we get to where you are 100% correct.
Nowhere in history has a population been “completely vegan”, or an animal species for that matter, not even the great apes, ruminants, elephants, rhinos etc. as they consume up to 10% of calories from insects, small animals, bacteria etc.
Same for humans, no way you 100% remove all animal products, or killing from your existence, but no one ever really, claimed you could, that is the straw man the Paleo, LC, Keto/Carnivore/ meat, dairy, egg industry charlatans and influencers have been peddling to rationalize a diet, based on their products, that is the number one cause of obesity, insulin resistance, T2DM, ischemic heart disease, stroke and cancer.
Vegan kooks do not help any either, which created the environment that made the political influence to the right, from Taubes, Tiecholtz, Weston Price, Atkins, Banting even, et al, so harmful for our health.
It results in the flat earth belief saturated fat is healthy and heart protective, necessary for hormone production, the brain, that it doesn’t raise LadL, or worse that LDL doesn’t cause ASCVD, ischemic heart disease, and stroke, and all manner of pseudoscientific nonsense, that is as bad or worse than the Climate nonsense of the Vegan leftist crowd.
The plant based diet contains many times more nutrients, fewer calories, zero cholesterol and little saturated fat, while providing more than enough protein and essential fiber, which is why the more whole plants one eats, especially if those calories replace calories from animal foods, the longer you live, and the healthier that life becomes.
Thousands of studies, over decades, on millions of people, across cultures and continents have proven this to be true, over and over again.
Now can you eat plenty of animals and be healthy, and live a long disease free life?
Absolutely, but it takes some serious planning, another fact in opposition to the current narrative, in making sure you eat enough plants, for vitamins, minerals, fiber etc, to mitigate the damage done from the high calorie, high concentration of single nutrients found in animal foods.
A ribeye, three cups of broccoli, and 8oz of potatoes is far better than a vegan meal of potato chips and Oreos, or drenching greens in oil, or consuming copious amounts of coconut products, and/or vegan animal substitute products.
Those are the First World additions to a vegan diet that no one needs, and in fact should minimize or avoid, as is the recommendation of virtually every vegan doctor, scientist, and/or researcher, and food guideline recommendation.
Almost all animals are technically Omnivores, humans are no different, we can live decades on junk food, cigarettes, cocaine and whiskey.
It doesn’t make them healthy, delicious, and fun, absolutely, but not healthy.😉
Oh man! I listened to this one while I was walking just now, and I swear I heard "pee protein."
I'll have to write about the time I took a road trip from Richmond to New Orleans with two vegans and one vegetarian. 1999's vegetarian road trip options were NOT great. I got to see this first hand.
If I have any "hot takes" for today, it's on this: "My main complaint about veganism is that it is not how we evolved." I kind of don't really care how we evolved since we're still evolving and can make what we will of the world as it arises, but I'm actually being pedantic because I'm pretty sure we agree on this too.
Keep 'em coming!
How we evolved is important to understand how to feed ourselves. I'm not opposed to veganism per se as long as we recognize we grew the brains we did because of meat and that we use those brains to figure out how to replace it without the silly "Gorillas don't eat meat" argument.
Gorillas don't eat meat, but they also don't build cities and land people in the moon. 🤣
Oh yeah! I just don't want to be truly limited by my biological programming, if that makes sense.
Also: gorillas don't build cities or land on the moon YET.
They need to start eating meat first!! 👊🏼
All connected to the fact that we huemans immorally extort each other for permission to share a planet NONE of us actually own through capitalism specifically real estate. . . which all food is grown from 🤟🏿🖖🏾
“My main complaint about veganism is that it is not how we evolved.”
That’s actually false, we did evolve as herbivores. You can look at our biology (teeth, intentional length, saliva pH, etc.) to confirm that. And our evolutionary lineage.
We started eating meat when we learned how to cook with fire. And that’s also when our brains grew. But we can’t attribute that just to meat. Yes extra protein helped, but we also unlocked the bioavailability of many important nutrients in plants, and allowed caloric intake of plants to increase (like how you can condense a box of spinach into a handful when you cook it).
To say veganism is not possible or healthy is just false. You can be healthy and eat meat, and you can be healthy and not eat meat.