I've said for a long time that people (primarily women, but not just) need to fight their own battles, and only drag HR or the lawyers into it when all else fails. A physical contact that leaves one uncomfortable is one you can address with the person. Just say "Hey, that made me feel a little uncomfortable, can you please not do that again?" Simple as pie. You treat the person like an adult and he'll likely appreciate that you didn't run off to HR like a disempowered little girl with her hairpins flying. This happened to a male friend of mine--the comradely arm around the shoulder--and he reached out to me because he really didn't understand what was so wrong about that.
You're right, we have turned into prudes and it's harming *all* of us, not just men. It needs to stop, without going back to the Mad Men days of unfettered, consequence-free sexual harassment.
I've thought about that too. Breakdown of the social order never goes well for women and children, and men you thought you could trust suddenly turn into animals (not all, obviously). And we don't know whom we can trust until we realize we can't trust them.
This is where Chesterton’s Fence is so important because the Patriarchy wasn’t designed to supress women. It was, first and foremost, to supress the worst inclinations of men. When women were admitted to male spaces, it also supressed women equally. But when we viewed that as bad, and began to desconstruct the patriarchy, we unlocked a lot of bad behaviors that we haven’t quite seen the worst of yet.
We need rules I suppose but they´re always a problem. As soon as an organization starts making rules about who gets to touch who affectionate touch goes down. Bosses can´t touch employees. Teachers can´t hug students. Men can´t touch women. All these rules meant to make things better so often make them worse. The ethics of touch are always situational -- it depends on the interpersonal context between the people involved in a way that doesn´t lend itself to generalized rule making.
Because some touch is predatory we think we can stop it by making rules against touch. But the reason, at least in part, that people become predatory in the first place is because they don´t get enough affectionate touch. We can´t solve the lonliness epidemic by legislating touch.
Exactly right. It's a mess. But another consequence is that it denies agency. The fear a woman might be touched in a way she doesn't like bans ALL touch instead of empowering here to say, "I don't appreciate that touch," and creating system where repeat offenders are castigated. There's no perfect system but what we have right now is very unhealthy for everyone.
My sports have been rugby (gay, look at those shorts), climbing (gay, we massage each other after a long day) and brazilian jiu jitsu (can't get much gayer than hugging in spandex). The constant line of "gay!" humor always felt like it was more mocking the insulting language some imaginary uncomfortable outside observer might say.
So thanks for this essay, matches my experiences perfectly.
I took a BJJ class one day and the instructor, a big burly bouncer dude pauses from the technique and says "Look, this is gayest sport on the planet and this going to be one of the gayest moves in the sport. If you've got an issue with it, now is a good time to leave."
Unsurprisingly, my best friends have come from these communities.
And also those communities have been, by far, the most balanced social environments. Turns out humans actually need touch.
What's also missing from the discourse is the level of conversations after the, um, heavy touching. People open up to each other way more after a rough rugby game or grappling training session.
Excellent points and thanks for that! I've done climbing and BJJ and I agree, especially with the conversations after the touch. I remember flopped on the mats after a long BJJ session and talking about random things that would never have come up over a beer (or would have come up after too many beers in a wallow of self-misery)
When the outside attachments of identity and cultural conditioning are stripped off, I think men resort to affection and play naturally. There is the affection/platonic touch, but the playful touch a soooo needed. There is an affection that seems to be communicated with the willingness to engage in play. I remember a guys psilocybin trip in Sedona where we had a puppy pile and giggled so hard tickling each other I couldn’t breathe 😉. I have to admit that affectionate male touch makes me feel weird, but I grew up in the 80’s and 90’s during the AIDS scare and serious religious homophobia. But playful touch is the same to me as affectionate touch. But I might turn a hand hold into a thumb war 😜.
I live alone and i am not lonely. I don't like male hugs or even handshakes (I prefer knuckle bumps where necessary) and don't really want to get touchy feely with any male. I don't watch or care about sports, so don't bond well with most males. I don't much like people as a general statement.
"...would you feel the same way if the internet and your smartphone were taken away?"
---
Probably not. But then again, I was a loner as a child, bullied frequently through 8th grade and suffered through a dysfunctional, toxic family. I've surmounted all those challenges to the degree that I don't ruminate about them but they certainly have had major effects on my whole life. I'm too old and too unwilling to change anything as I've grown comfortable with myself.
I get that there's different strokes for different folks. The only thing I would suggest is not to hold everyone else to the same level of physical touch. For example, I need more touch than you by far. I can appreciate where you're at, and I get that.
But a lot of people who want more closeness are not getting it, which can be witnessed through the ever growing adoption of AI chatbot companions and sex dolls.
Perhaps this is a subject that you might want to look into and write about.
That's exactly what I was poking at here with bromance. We've starved half the population of healthy connection and they're trying to fill it with Chatbots. It's a mess!
It’s funny to me as I see men have become so “feminized” by a “feminist” led society there aren’t more touchy-feely men who aren’t gay. Men don’t have a chance. Since the late 80’s men have been shoved to the background to “empower” the girls and now we have lonely men who don’t hug and girls who can’t find a good man.
100% agree. Those men are touchy feely but not in a healthy way either. It's like their pantomiming the feminine model without embracing the healthier, for them, male touch. And, that touchy feely borders on gay as well meaning it's in a weird space which isn't rewarding.
There are two ways for a man to pay to get touch if he's starved for it and the local laws allow it: massage and lap dances. Given how often the former gets sexualized, both can be problematic. Furthermore, a lot of localities actively try to eliminate both of these options.
It's very difficult these days for a man to both wake up to his need for non-sexual touch and then go find it.
I think it's incredible that those are the only two we can mention with significant caveats. I'd also say, personally, that a massage in that capacity isn't the same kind of intimacy that's missing, and, as you pointed out, if it starts to get close, it ends up being sexual.
I saw this is a boyfriend I had. We broke up for other reasons, but it was so awkward for him to admit he needed the non sexual connection, and it took a lot of conversations to work out why I felt fine, and he felt abandoned. My girlfriends and I would do girls ' nights and end up skinny dipping in the pool and lounging around together, and his guys' nights would be nothing like that. He was starved for touch and this explains why.
Thanks and great points. BJJ does hae that expereince but it's also intentionally violent. Case in point, when grappling with women there was a significant akwardness. I remember in one of my classes, there was a young woman who was clearly enjoying the grappling in a non-platonic way. After a week, and after one particular time where she was in the mount and I rolled her into the guard, she straight up asked me to 'practice' with her that night. That was a weird one because it *should* have been platonic at best case and yet, with the presense of a woman, it turned sexual way too fast.
I've said for a long time that people (primarily women, but not just) need to fight their own battles, and only drag HR or the lawyers into it when all else fails. A physical contact that leaves one uncomfortable is one you can address with the person. Just say "Hey, that made me feel a little uncomfortable, can you please not do that again?" Simple as pie. You treat the person like an adult and he'll likely appreciate that you didn't run off to HR like a disempowered little girl with her hairpins flying. This happened to a male friend of mine--the comradely arm around the shoulder--and he reached out to me because he really didn't understand what was so wrong about that.
You're right, we have turned into prudes and it's harming *all* of us, not just men. It needs to stop, without going back to the Mad Men days of unfettered, consequence-free sexual harassment.
Absolutely agree, and I hope we get there sooner than later because I fear the whiplash will put us back to Mad Men faster than we want.
I've thought about that too. Breakdown of the social order never goes well for women and children, and men you thought you could trust suddenly turn into animals (not all, obviously). And we don't know whom we can trust until we realize we can't trust them.
This is where Chesterton’s Fence is so important because the Patriarchy wasn’t designed to supress women. It was, first and foremost, to supress the worst inclinations of men. When women were admitted to male spaces, it also supressed women equally. But when we viewed that as bad, and began to desconstruct the patriarchy, we unlocked a lot of bad behaviors that we haven’t quite seen the worst of yet.
Touch is fine, but context rules everything.
If I have not seen you in ten years and we almost died together once = Gentlemen’s hug.
If you are six months sober = Single slap on the back.
If we served in war together = Manly hug only. Two seconds max.
If doing mushrooms together = Verbal expression of manly love allowed. One mention only.
If your father died this year = Hand on shoulder. Silence encouraged.
If you helped me move a couch up three flights of stairs = Nod of mutual respect.
If you saved my life but we are not close friends = Firm handshake. Eye contact. Nothing else.
If we are drunk and talking about our dads = Side hug permitted. Ends before tears.
If you paid my bail = Hug allowed. Never spoken of again.
If you are getting married = Quick hug. Pat on the back during release.
If your dog died = Hand squeeze. Immediate release.
If we played sports together in high school = Chest bump
If we fought once and then became friends = One shoulder bump. Side smirk required.
If you are leaving the country forever = Hug allowed. Awkward pause expected.
If you told me a secret that could ruin your life = Quiet nod. Absolute loyalty.
If we survived a natural disaster together = Hug plus eye contact. No words.
If anyone brings this list up afterward, = Deny everything.
Those are the rules, every man knows them. This is the way...
Lol. That list is half the problem!
You will have to talk to the High Table about that. I don’t make the rules Mr. Woudenberg.
That's a lot of rules! :)
Man rules
We need rules I suppose but they´re always a problem. As soon as an organization starts making rules about who gets to touch who affectionate touch goes down. Bosses can´t touch employees. Teachers can´t hug students. Men can´t touch women. All these rules meant to make things better so often make them worse. The ethics of touch are always situational -- it depends on the interpersonal context between the people involved in a way that doesn´t lend itself to generalized rule making.
Because some touch is predatory we think we can stop it by making rules against touch. But the reason, at least in part, that people become predatory in the first place is because they don´t get enough affectionate touch. We can´t solve the lonliness epidemic by legislating touch.
Exactly right. It's a mess. But another consequence is that it denies agency. The fear a woman might be touched in a way she doesn't like bans ALL touch instead of empowering here to say, "I don't appreciate that touch," and creating system where repeat offenders are castigated. There's no perfect system but what we have right now is very unhealthy for everyone.
Sounds like you’re gay and just trying to get away with being a creep…
Haha you continue to show there isn’t a topic you can’t cover. Excellent and thoughtful piece. Looking forward to licking your face one day.
The lick can happen after we violently grapple.
Deal
My sports have been rugby (gay, look at those shorts), climbing (gay, we massage each other after a long day) and brazilian jiu jitsu (can't get much gayer than hugging in spandex). The constant line of "gay!" humor always felt like it was more mocking the insulting language some imaginary uncomfortable outside observer might say.
So thanks for this essay, matches my experiences perfectly.
I took a BJJ class one day and the instructor, a big burly bouncer dude pauses from the technique and says "Look, this is gayest sport on the planet and this going to be one of the gayest moves in the sport. If you've got an issue with it, now is a good time to leave."
Unsurprisingly, my best friends have come from these communities.
And also those communities have been, by far, the most balanced social environments. Turns out humans actually need touch.
What's also missing from the discourse is the level of conversations after the, um, heavy touching. People open up to each other way more after a rough rugby game or grappling training session.
Excellent points and thanks for that! I've done climbing and BJJ and I agree, especially with the conversations after the touch. I remember flopped on the mats after a long BJJ session and talking about random things that would never have come up over a beer (or would have come up after too many beers in a wallow of self-misery)
"I joke that “You can’t out-gay a Ranger."" I am pretty sure I know of one unit that can...
Haha. I’ve hung with Seals… you’re probably right.
When the outside attachments of identity and cultural conditioning are stripped off, I think men resort to affection and play naturally. There is the affection/platonic touch, but the playful touch a soooo needed. There is an affection that seems to be communicated with the willingness to engage in play. I remember a guys psilocybin trip in Sedona where we had a puppy pile and giggled so hard tickling each other I couldn’t breathe 😉. I have to admit that affectionate male touch makes me feel weird, but I grew up in the 80’s and 90’s during the AIDS scare and serious religious homophobia. But playful touch is the same to me as affectionate touch. But I might turn a hand hold into a thumb war 😜.
You'd have to turn it into a Thumb War because that's the only way to excert dominance and add a touch of violence! 😆
You see a lot of normal male touch and behaviour in older movies, before everything turned deeply weird.
Right, that’s a great point. Now, any male phsyical touch in movies is patently homosexual.
I live alone and i am not lonely. I don't like male hugs or even handshakes (I prefer knuckle bumps where necessary) and don't really want to get touchy feely with any male. I don't watch or care about sports, so don't bond well with most males. I don't much like people as a general statement.
Interesting. My good friend feels like that too.
Just curious: would you feel the same way if the internet and your smartphone were taken away?
"...would you feel the same way if the internet and your smartphone were taken away?"
---
Probably not. But then again, I was a loner as a child, bullied frequently through 8th grade and suffered through a dysfunctional, toxic family. I've surmounted all those challenges to the degree that I don't ruminate about them but they certainly have had major effects on my whole life. I'm too old and too unwilling to change anything as I've grown comfortable with myself.
I get that there's different strokes for different folks. The only thing I would suggest is not to hold everyone else to the same level of physical touch. For example, I need more touch than you by far. I can appreciate where you're at, and I get that.
Of course. To each their own.
But a lot of people who want more closeness are not getting it, which can be witnessed through the ever growing adoption of AI chatbot companions and sex dolls.
Perhaps this is a subject that you might want to look into and write about.
That's exactly what I was poking at here with bromance. We've starved half the population of healthy connection and they're trying to fill it with Chatbots. It's a mess!
It’s funny to me as I see men have become so “feminized” by a “feminist” led society there aren’t more touchy-feely men who aren’t gay. Men don’t have a chance. Since the late 80’s men have been shoved to the background to “empower” the girls and now we have lonely men who don’t hug and girls who can’t find a good man.
100% agree. Those men are touchy feely but not in a healthy way either. It's like their pantomiming the feminine model without embracing the healthier, for them, male touch. And, that touchy feely borders on gay as well meaning it's in a weird space which isn't rewarding.
There are two ways for a man to pay to get touch if he's starved for it and the local laws allow it: massage and lap dances. Given how often the former gets sexualized, both can be problematic. Furthermore, a lot of localities actively try to eliminate both of these options.
It's very difficult these days for a man to both wake up to his need for non-sexual touch and then go find it.
I think it's incredible that those are the only two we can mention with significant caveats. I'd also say, personally, that a massage in that capacity isn't the same kind of intimacy that's missing, and, as you pointed out, if it starts to get close, it ends up being sexual.
I saw this is a boyfriend I had. We broke up for other reasons, but it was so awkward for him to admit he needed the non sexual connection, and it took a lot of conversations to work out why I felt fine, and he felt abandoned. My girlfriends and I would do girls ' nights and end up skinny dipping in the pool and lounging around together, and his guys' nights would be nothing like that. He was starved for touch and this explains why.
Interesting. I keep hearing more people say the same thing once it’s been named.
Thanks and great points. BJJ does hae that expereince but it's also intentionally violent. Case in point, when grappling with women there was a significant akwardness. I remember in one of my classes, there was a young woman who was clearly enjoying the grappling in a non-platonic way. After a week, and after one particular time where she was in the mount and I rolled her into the guard, she straight up asked me to 'practice' with her that night. That was a weird one because it *should* have been platonic at best case and yet, with the presense of a woman, it turned sexual way too fast.